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jhyatt · by jhyatt » Sat Sep 21, 2024 12:16 am

We've grown that purple variety in containers here in
Tennessee for a number of years, and much prefer it to the gaudier red-orange species. I've tried it in the ground, but it seems to do a lot better in a container. Sadly I couldn't find it at any nursery this year, and we are making do with brighter-colored ones. They all attract butterflies (and hummingbirds) very well.

jhyatt · by jhyatt » Sat Sep 21, 2024 12:10 am

Underfeeding or sub-optimum food plant utilization may well account for the little ones. But I don't see how the reverse, overfeeding, would account for the giants - a larva can only get so big before it has to moult. Hence my thought about a possible extra instar.

I have an old (1930's) Riker mount with 6 Colias eurytheme from Alberta, and they are every one about half normal size. The original collector wrote on the back of the mount, after the data,"The year of drought".

jh

livingplanet3 · by livingplanet3 » Fri Sep 20, 2024 5:50 pm

58chevy wrote: ↑Fri Sep 20, 2024 2:18 pm Livingplanet, is montevidensis a good butterfly attractor and is it available at most nurseries?

Butterflies will come to it, but it seems less attractive to them than other Lantana species (at least in my experience). I've seen a few skippers on it. The common Lantana (L. camara) seems to be more reliable for attracting butterflies and other pollinators. I got my L. montevidensis at a local nursery last spring. It doesn't seem to be as commonly available at garden centers as L. camara. Here's a photo of a purple cultivar of montevidensis -

https://plantmaster.com/plants/eplant.p ... oject=2315

In a contained area, it's easy to control, but if given space, it will rapidly climb all over everything in a vine-like manner, as here, with this fence -

https://waterwisegardenplanner.org/plan ... evidensis/

Its growth habit is very different from that of camara, which is much more shrub-like in shape.

kevinkk wrote: ↑Fri Sep 20, 2024 4:35 pm Perhaps, but I offer this- The Lantana I have is in a container that held a sweet gum tree , the tree, more or less a sapling, this year began to fail,
so it was cut, the stump left. We planted the flowers, and later the sweet gum started to grow again, the deer ate the new Liquidambar, right next
to the Lantana. Now, you could read just about anything when it comes to animal behavior, is it random chance, or by design?

As with anything else, I'm sure that there are numerous variables involved. I like to think that the deer are now staying away from my place just because I planted a bunch of Lantana, but it could well have more to do with the fact that there are now more dogs on my street, which might be a deterrent to them. Also, as of late last year, a new residence was built just to the east of my house, which also happens to be the direction that most deer would have wandered in from, where there is a heavily wooded area.

kevinkk · by kevinkk » Fri Sep 20, 2024 4:35 pm

livingplanet3 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 20, 2024 2:07 pm Interestingly, deer stopped coming around my yard after the Lantatas were planted. Apart from being unpalatable, I wonder if they also have a repellent effect, if planted in sufficient quantity? If so, it's helping protect my other plants as well

Perhaps, but I offer this- The Lantana I have is in a container that held a sweet gum tree , the tree, more or less a sapling, this year began to fail,
so it was cut, the stump left. We planted the flowers, and later the sweet gum started to grow again, the deer ate the new Liquidambar, right next
to the Lantana. Now, you could read just about anything when it comes to animal behavior, is it random chance, or by design?

kevinkk · by kevinkk » Fri Sep 20, 2024 4:24 pm

Chuck wrote: ↑Fri Sep 20, 2024 3:13 pm . We know that pupae lose weight during dipause, and the loss accumulates over time, which can only result in a smaller adult.

I had always wondered if pupa lost weight as time passed. It seems logical as the animal changes internally, but I have never made the effort to
compare weights of newly formed cocoons or pupa to ones after diapausing or after being set out to hatch.

Other factors can cause dwarves, I had a Brahmaea wallichi larva form a dwarf pupa after missing consuming it's shed skin, something I noticed
with 1 or 2 other larva. Unfortunately, the moth expired before hatching. The other larva simply wouldn't grow and I dispatched them.

Another factor might be food plant, not sub-par material, but living plants. I have suspected that the Hyalophora euryalus I raise from
wild adults and used cherry to grow the larva was producing larger adults than the ones I was capturing, and this season I split the brood between
cherry and ceanothus, the cherry part spun cocoons that are clearly larger, I have yet to weigh and store them.
Now that it's come up, I'll take the time to check all my adult euryalus specimens and compare the wild ones with the ones I raised at
home on cherry. Now, there is no way to know what an adult capture fed on, but I think some conclusions could be drawn.

Chuck · by Chuck » Fri Sep 20, 2024 3:22 pm

That is an astonishing photograph. Vernon, I hope you kept that- if it were mine it would be a favored specimen!

Chuck · by Chuck » Fri Sep 20, 2024 3:20 pm

180k Euros - wonder whose pocket that went into. Third world cesspit countries who learned bureaucracy from the Brits.

Chuck · by Chuck » Fri Sep 20, 2024 3:13 pm

Cabintom wrote: ↑Fri Sep 20, 2024 2:18 pm I always assumed underfed larva = smaller adult.

That is my experience raising Saturnids. Those exposed to crowding and competition for food results in surprisingly small adults.

Also- John had mentioned spring individuals tend to be smaller. We know that pupae lose weight during dipause, and the loss accumulates over time, which can only result in a smaller adult.

58chevy · by 58chevy » Fri Sep 20, 2024 2:18 pm

Livingplanet, is montevidensis a good butterfly attractor and is it available at most nurseries?

Cabintom · by Cabintom » Fri Sep 20, 2024 2:18 pm

I always assumed underfed larva = smaller adult.

livingplanet3 · by livingplanet3 » Fri Sep 20, 2024 2:07 pm

kevinkk wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2024 11:22 pm Nice. Lantana also seems to be deer resistant. That means that deer choose my other plants first, and have as yet, not chomped any Lantana.
Finding nice looking plants that flower, are less tasty than others and will do well where you put them isn't always easy.
Proactive can be the order, the lupine had to be fenced in this year, and successfully bloomed, I could have photographed it I suppose ,a
nice yellow and purple colored cultivar.
it's always too late when you realize you have deer salad or your plant is homesick.

Interestingly, deer stopped coming around my yard after the Lantatas were planted. Apart from being unpalatable, I wonder if they also have a repellent effect, if planted in sufficient quantity? If so, it's helping protect my other plants as well.

58chevy wrote: ↑Fri Sep 20, 2024 2:04 am There is a large Lantana patch near my house that is exploding with blooms right now and attracting butterflies. I've never seen the variety that changes colors.

Some varieties have flowers that change color as they mature, and others (such as "New Gold") don't. I'd long had a variety here that goes from yellow to orange, but until quite recently, I really wasn't aware of the cultivars that have pink/purple coloration. One that I planted this spring (a purple variety of Lantana montevidensis), is a trailing form that I really should have kept in some large pots, because when planted in the ground, it's growth was exponential - it rapidly took over and became impossible to keep in check. In a single season, two small plants took over an entire area, smothering everything else around them.

jhyatt · by jhyatt » Fri Sep 20, 2024 1:59 pm

Anyone have a guess as to why undersized specimens seem to turn up more commonly than oversized ones? I'm pretty sure this is the case generally. I assume that oversize ones managed to get in one extra larval instar, and the dwarves maybe missed one, or pushed it early due to cold weather coming. The small ones, especially in the Pierids and Papilionids, seem to be a springtime occurrence, and most of the oversized ones I've taken have been in the late summer and fall.

Eddie-Bug · by Eddie-Bug » Fri Sep 20, 2024 12:12 pm

Great response

Thanks Johnny

PS/ I assume you agree with the ID?

Johnnyboy · by Johnnyboy » Fri Sep 20, 2024 9:01 am

In the late 1970s, I came across a colony of Wartbiter Crickets, Decticus verrucivorus, living on a rosebush at the end of my brother's garden, next to a mill stream that ran from the River Medway in East Peckham, Kent.

The females were around 2 inches (5cm) in bodylength (if you include the ovipositer). I decided to keep some in an old aquarium, I picked one up and it bit me very severely, the blood was running from my finger and I had to wrap tissue around the tip to soak up the blood. It put me off keeping them as pets so I returned them all to the place I found them. A rather stout, chunky insect.

Of course they were used to bite off warts in years gone by. Interestingly anther insect used to treat warts is the Spanish Fly beetle (Lytta vesicatoria). They secrete a vesicant, the poisonous Cantharadin. This is applied to the wart topically to chemically burn it away. If consumed in small amounts, cantharadin also acts as a sexual stimulant through irritation of the urethral tract.

The Great Green Bushcricket, (Tettigonia viridissima) is even bigger. One of my friends has found them ovipositing on the dunes on the Kent Coast, near Sandwich. The females reach over 7cm in bodylength (including ovipositer) and are the largest cricket found in the UK.

Regards

Johnny

Johnnyboy · by Johnnyboy » Fri Sep 20, 2024 8:30 am

That really is a big specimen of a beautiful butterfly. Mourning Cloaks, or Camberwell Beauties as their known in the UK, are only scarce migrants here in England. A few years ago, a friend of mine caught one in the east of England that had landed on the road surface. He simply picked it up. He was so excited that he phoned me while I was at work to tell me about his exciting find.

Regards

Johnny

58chevy · by 58chevy » Fri Sep 20, 2024 2:04 am

There is a large Lantana patch near my house that is exploding with blooms right now and attracting butterflies. I've never seen the variety that changes colors.

kevinkk · by kevinkk » Thu Sep 19, 2024 11:22 pm

Nice. Lantana also seems to be deer resistant. That means that deer choose my other plants first, and have as yet, not chomped any Lantana.
Finding nice looking plants that flower, are less tasty than others and will do well where you put them isn't always easy.
Proactive can be the order, the lupine had to be fenced in this year, and successfully bloomed, I could have photographed it I suppose ,a
nice yellow and purple colored cultivar.
it's always too late when you realize you have deer salad or your plant is homesick.

58chevy · by 58chevy » Thu Sep 19, 2024 10:21 pm

Here's an unusually large Nymphalis antiopa, with swallowtails for size comparison:

livingplanet3 · by livingplanet3 » Thu Sep 19, 2024 5:58 pm

Now that the weather is getting milder, the Lantanas are starting to bloom well again, including a particularly colorful variety with flowers that start out yellow, then change to white, then pink. Photo below.

Lantana has proven to be a good choice for my yard - they tolerate the summer heat, and need very little maintenance apart from watering. They die back to the ground after the first hard freeze, but quickly grow back from the base in the spring. Same with Cannas, so for a few months of the year, I don't even need to water them.

Trehopr1 · by Trehopr1 » Thu Sep 19, 2024 2:38 pm

I should have mentioned that if anyone does have a specimen photograph to share with us it would be very helpful to many if a "typical" size example of the species were shown along with your oversize specimen.

Measurements are also helpful if you have no "typical" examples to show us.

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Lantanas blooming again

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