InsectNet forum

inopinatus · by inopinatus » Thu Nov 14, 2024 10:09 pm

I am so sad !
Since my first trip with him in Kyrgyzstan almost 20 years ago, I have always looked up to him and his commitment to his passion for butterflies.
Like Olivier, I visited him several times. Seeing his collection and discussing entomology made a lasting impression on me! His dedication to entomology was a true inspiration !

He will missed indeed!

Emmanuel

colon · by colon » Thu Nov 14, 2024 9:07 pm

This is sad news.
I enjoyed company with Bernard in France, and in collection of specimens with him in Madagascar and also later in Tanzania.
He traveled widely for years and was a keen collector and a knowledgeable lepidopterist.
He will be sadly missed.
Colon

papiliotheona · by papiliotheona » Thu Nov 14, 2024 8:09 pm

Rutulus is normally univoltine everywhere but California, where three broods are possible and it's (rarely) possible to see them in December even. California, especially So Cal, material tends to be both larger and richer in color than those from either further north or the interior states, which are at times pretty modest in size. Strangely enough, the rutulus around Kennedy Meadows, CA (southern Sierras) are quite a bit smaller, despite the area not being terribly high (6700').

I would say our second and third brood material is a little larger than the first post-diapause early spring emergence, but not necessarily by a ton. Now, that being said, some big summer specimens, especially females, can rival the size of many multicaudata.

In my opinion, the California material is describable.

eurytides · by eurytides » Thu Nov 14, 2024 7:14 pm

That’s going to make my wife less happy, not more…

kevinkk · by kevinkk » Thu Nov 14, 2024 6:26 pm

Chuck wrote: ↑Thu Nov 14, 2024 5:42 pm this forum is so cool.

Exactly. I see the word "migration" typically as something seasonal, when it comes to animals. We see it every year when geese fly overhead.
I would think there is probably a better term for "permanent migration" which wouldn't really be migration, it would be relocation or "moving".
Maybe a linguist would sort it out, maybe it's simply a multi purpose term which needs context to be defined.
Animals flee all kinds of climatic conditions, even seagulls "migrate" inland before storms, and some insects flee hot weather for the mountains.

Chuck · by Chuck » Thu Nov 14, 2024 5:42 pm

^^ and that's why this forum is so cool.

Jshuey · by Jshuey » Thu Nov 14, 2024 2:16 pm

This is a common mis-use of the term migration". Most people use it in two ways. To describe "round trip" movements - like migratory birds or monarchs in North America, or movements that establish new homes, like a lot Europeans migrated to North America over the past couple hundred years. In both cases there is a general directional movement and it is adaptive - as in it allows successful migrants to thrive.

It is also being used in conservation - "assisted migration". We just moved a bunch of Franklin's ground squirrels into Indiana in an attempt to establish a population that can weather future predicted climates. The idea that you can move certain species northward to save them. We have been moving seeds from some types of southern oaks into Indiana for years in an attempt to introduce "southern genotypes" into our populations of black, white and other oaks - just to hopefully give these key tree species the genetic diversity they may need for the future. In this case, the species are already here, we just want them to have access to southern genes - just in case they need them in a few decades.

But people also call dispersal that accomplishes none of these things as migration. Like all those southern butterflies that wander northward in the US every year, only to get killed back in the winter. This is probably the result of random movement in all directions, such that we only see them when the wander into new regions (and don't notice those individuals that simply mingled within their normal range). I always try and differentiate between migration and dispersal when I use the terms - but not many other people make this attempt.

As to moving back and forth between habitats in the search for resources, that is more of a "home range" issue. Rare Skippers (Atrytone byssus) are well known for spending the day out in hard to access salt marshes, but early in the morning, come inland to seek nectar. Turns out that they are not that rare - you just have to know when and where to look for them.

John

Chuck · by Chuck » Thu Nov 14, 2024 1:09 pm

In an email, John Calhoun made mention of Papilio glaucus "migrating" north during the summer in US northeast.

Recently, Harry Pavulaan made mention of Papilio glaucus "migrating" from valleys to mountain tops during summers in the Skyline (VA) area.

I usually think of "migrate" as permanent, though obviously that is not inferred by the definition. So I suppose the above use of the word is correct.

What other species migrate temporarily, perhaps with offspring not surviving?

We discussed Vanessa atlanta apparently migrating north during 2024, in huge numbers. viewtopic.php?p=10205&hilit=vanessa#p10205

And, observations from 2024 of Papilio cresphontes appearing in way northern NY and Ontario CA. viewtopic.php?p=10879&hilit=cresphontes#p10879 I wonder- was this a localized population explosion, or was it migration from the south? If it was migration, from where did they come?

What are the ramifications of temporary migration where closely related taxa might overlap? Not really thinking this through, in the case of migration to colder (northern or higher altitude) it would probably be minimal since hybrid offspring won't survive.

A recent publication in LepSoc pointed out that Danaus gilippus is indeed migratory, despite long-held beliefs and lack of study / interest.

How long does a move have to last in order to be considered "migration"? An observation of MST in our area is that many of the adults come from somewhere to my primary research hill to nectar, and then return at the end of the day. I know they're coming from the south west, but I don't know if they are travelling 0.5km or 20km. This I'd not consider "migration" but does bring up another question- how far will a Lep fly to nectar?

Anyone have thoughts or observations on unpublished or undiscussed "migration"?

Chuck · by Chuck » Thu Nov 14, 2024 12:50 pm

eurytides wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2024 10:12 pm Let me tell you Chuck, my wife was not happy I bought that tree. We seriously don’t have room for it in the yard. She said I could keep it so long as I pruned it every year and made sure it didn’t grow any taller…

You know, you could have driven down here and gone home with as many as you want. My back yard is loaded with Tulip Tree.

eurytides · by eurytides » Thu Nov 14, 2024 5:18 am

Most green larvae glow under UV, except tiger swallowtails it seems. However, the yellow transverse band behind the thorax does glow. Their fake eye spots also glow. I have found them at night using my UV light.

Trehopr1 · by Trehopr1 » Thu Nov 14, 2024 1:52 am

Again, some more superb specimens !

Thank you eurytides for sharing those pictures with us.

kevinkk · by kevinkk » Thu Nov 14, 2024 1:27 am

Pretty cool Eurytides. I buy trees as well, everything in the yard I have is a foodplant, and using uv light does work, I haven't hunted with it, but
I've used it on Papilo rutulus larva, which do not show up, and Smerinthus ceryisi which show up very well. My yard is overcrowded as well

The expenses, field time is just like deer hunting was, by the pound, venison gets expensive.

eurytides · by eurytides » Wed Nov 13, 2024 10:22 pm

And the price per specimen is even worse if you take into account the money we spent on lodgings and gas.

eurytides · by eurytides » Wed Nov 13, 2024 10:12 pm

Let me tell you Chuck, my wife was not happy I bought that tree. We seriously don’t have room for it in the yard. She said I could keep it so long as I pruned it every year and made sure it didn’t grow any taller…

Kona · by Kona » Wed Nov 13, 2024 10:09 pm

Hi Adam

Could you send me a reprint too?

Thnx

Chuck · by Chuck » Wed Nov 13, 2024 9:58 pm

eurytides wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2024 7:26 pm so when I got back home I actually spent $300 and bought a tuliptree

Priceless. That's dedication! Your price per specimen eclipsed Ornithoptera victoriae.

eurytides · by eurytides » Wed Nov 13, 2024 9:36 pm

You asked for more of my specimens, so here are a few more. This is all I have on my phone at the moment. All ex pupa/cocoon. The cecropia collection took a number of years to amass....one drawer is enough for me. The tiger swallowtails are the midsummer tigers Chuck and I have been researching and chatting about in other threads. The American snout is a very rare butterflies in my area, documented just a few times before. I raised a series a few years ago. They have really cute pure green pupae that are just over 1 cm long that you would never find in a million years if you were just looking on the tree. I didn't have a UV light yet back then, so it's entirely possible they would glow under UV and could be easily found that way.

eurytides · by eurytides » Wed Nov 13, 2024 9:22 pm

Thanks again for the kind words.

Honestly, I didn't know anything about Asterocampa before I found them. They aren't found where I live in eastern Ontario and I had never bothered researching them. When I saw the pupae, I knew they were nymphalids but I had to google them to actually figure out what they were. It helped that they were on hackberry. Not many bugs eat that as a host plant. The funny thing is that while I was there, I never saw a single adult male or female, not even a beat up one. I think sometimes people post about certain species being rare, but it's just that they are rarely seen, not actually rare. I didn't see a single adult but there were loads of these pupae and I also saw caterpillars. There were also several empty pupae on the tree and also on some plants under the tree. So evidently, they pupate mostly on the leaves of the host but also in the brush underneath the host sometimes. I say "the tree" because I only looked at one tree and didn't even bother searching for others. I'm sure I could have found hundreds.

As for the Callosamia angulifera, part of the reason I wanted to raise them is that I want to write about this species next year when I have enough data. I don't think they are reared often, and when they are, people assume they are well known and just don't pay much attention. Certainly, no one has written about them in Canada. I've read a bunch of papers from Peigler and also the Silkmoths of NA by Tuskes. I definitely have new information to add. For example, you will see various resources repeat that angulifera females mate and lay eggs the next day. This is contrary to the other silkmoths I've raised, and certainly, Callosamia promethea lay eggs as soon as the females detach. So I thought this was rather strange, but did not think to question the "experts." When I had a female emerge, I thought she wasn't going to do anything that night and just left her alone in her container. Well, when I checked on her later that night, she had mated with a male and laid about 20 eggs. I put her in a bag and another 20 were laid by next morning. So even simple behaviours like that are not well documented. I'm hoping to get more eggs next year and also try some different host plants besides tuliptree to see if there are differences in growth rates...etc.

Trehopr1 · by Trehopr1 » Wed Nov 13, 2024 8:12 pm

Thank you eurytides for your kind reply and very interesting post.
I would have never thought to look under leaves for chrysalids !
They're certainly perfectly camouflaged much like monarch chrysalids are....

I really do admire hobbyists like yourself who are fascinated by the life cycles of things and take a scientific approach to breeding things through while documenting all sorts of information along the way.

A very honorable path indeed and certainly inspiring to those with a similar like-mindedness.

I do know that Adam, DaveUK, and kevinkk have all done quite a measure of breeding of various species. Between all three fellas one could probably cobble together a nice little book based on all their insights and findings....

eurytides · by eurytides » Wed Nov 13, 2024 7:26 pm

Thanks Trehopr1. The Asterocampa clyton pupae were totally by accident. I didn't go to that location searching for them. But whenever I go somewhere, I just have a habit of walking around in the dark with a UV light to see if I spot anything cool, and I saw these. They were incredibly easy to find. I think the first night, I saw more than a dozen. I got tired of grabbing them after about 5 minutes and decided to look for something else lol. I took 8 the first night, see picture. They pupate on the underside of the hackberry leaves and even without a light, you could probably find them easily during the day with some careful searching.

As for the Callosamia angulifera, that was my "target." Every year, you see single digit records of this species in ON. They are found in 3 isolated and small colonies. I was only down there for a week with the family and every night I would go out searching with my UV light. The eggs glow under UV so it's not hard to see them. The larvae glow too. Anyway, it was the second or third night I think and I came across 8 larvae. There's not a lot of tuliptree where I live so when I got back home I actually spent $300 and bought a tuliptree which is now planted in my back yard. All 8 larvae were raised indoors and spun cocoons early August. A pair unexpectedly emerged mid September and mated and I got eggs from that second generation which I also raised.

I found more stuff this summer but they are in the fridge (including some Eumorpha pandorus). When they are out and pinned, I will share more photos. I don't actually have a huge collection or keep many specimens every year. Pretty much everything I have is ex pupa and it takes a long time to raise them from eggs or larvae to an adult. Sometimes I will find a species and won't have that specimen set and labelled until the next year after they overwinter and emerge as adults. But for me, I like rearing. It's enjoyable, I get to really learn about that species in detail (as opposed to just catching an adult), my specimens are ex pupae, and I have full rearing data for everything.

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