Don't collect in Sri Lanka!

[Cassidinae]

Two young Germans arrived into NYC carrying automatic pocket knives. They didn't know it was illegal, so the "proportionality of punishment" to them was zero, right? But they found out otherwise. They tried common sense appeals "But you people have GUNS!" which meant nothing to the NYC cops who just want to enforce, enforce, enforce. So they were arrested and tossed in jail.

Yes. But again, it remains to say that this happens (so far) mostly only in "uncivilized" (often totalitarian) countries. In civilized countries, things are judged on the basis of "danger to society" and there is usually also the possibility of "pardon of punishment".

<edited by admin : no politics, see our rules>

[Chuck]

mostly only in "uncivilized" (often totalitarian) countries.

Having travelled the world, I see little difference between the "civilized" and "uncivilized" countries. Some may have more infrastructure, some may hide corruption better, but overall, I don't believe it anymore.

[Cassidinae]

Having travelled the world, I see little difference between the "civilized" and "uncivilized" countries. Some may have more infrastructure, some may hide corruption better, but overall, I don't believe it anymore.

Maybe I just worded it wrong. The word "civilized" is wrong. The word "developed/advanced" should have been used instead. But even that can be misunderstood. A country's "maturity" cannot be judged by gross domestic product/money. Otherwise, goatherds with rich oil fields would be in charge,...

[adamcotton]

If an offending adventurer/collector disregards the details that they should be well aware of (which means disrespecting present laws) of a country you don't live in then if you are caught you deserve what they slap on you.

Really? And why don't they measure with the same meter? Or is it common for the US to fine foreign tourists 1000x more for the same offense than they would a US citizen? You're kidding right?

Well, I don't think it's always the case ... here in Thailand an old couple received 300+ years in prison for 'deforestation' ... their crime was picking mushrooms in a national park to eat.

Adam.

[kevinkk]

<edited by admin, no politics, see our rules>

Now you just wait a minute. Politics is banned here buddy. Drop it.
I could see this topic was going political. This needs removed asap.
This really burns my ass. It's immature, it's uncalled for and you need to
stick to the hobby.
Looks like you probably offended some Germans as well. Good job.

[wollastoni]

Yes, let's avoid politics please as it often (always ?) ends in a very bad mood on the forum. We are a small community, let's keep it united as much as we can.
See our rules here.

[wollastoni]

I don't disagree with anything you say here. And I've spent plenty of money traveling - rationalizing it as for the greater good even though I really do it because I love traveling in Latin America. But for the last 20+ years, I have tempered my collecting "urge" recognizing that if I don't have a permit - it's better to photograph. Plus, in Brasil at least - it's hard to imagine that "tourists" like me really add much when they have people who are aggressively sampling across the country and house university collections of South American bugs that put the holdings in the Northern hemisphere to shame. And - they fight the good fight - trying to temper the deforestation you speak of.

For me, this transition from a "mad collector of bugs" to someone who is a bit more rational (at least in my opinion) took some time and mental adjustment.

Here is a bug I covet - but at least I got a photo near Brasilia once - Sophista latifasciata

John

Very well said John, same for me... even if it is very hard once in the tropics.

I would add that even with permits, it can be very difficult in some countries. Last year in Papua with a team of Naturalis, we had a lot of difficulties and lost several days due to non cooperative forestry guards, police, customs and so on... I could be wrong but I had the feeling it was a kind of "nationalism" and "revenge against the former colonialists". We had the permits but they wanted to show that Indonesia is the current colonial power in Papua and they can decide that these permits worth nothing if they want to... maybe they wanted a bribe... maybe they wanted to show to "the whites" who the current boss is... anyway it was a mess, a loss of time, a loss of money... and a loss for entomology (but that's the last of their concern).

This topic was about Sri Lanka but I am afraid the whole "South" will soon turn as Sri Lanka. And yes, don't collect in Sri Lanka ! I hope this topic will avoid some issues for some collectors as Sri Lanka is more and more a touristic destination for Europeans (and maybe Americans, no idea).

[Chuck]

Last year in Papua with a team of Naturalis, we had a lot of difficulties and lost several days due to non cooperative forestry guards, police, customs and so on... I could be wrong but I had the feeling it was a kind of "nationalism" and "revenge against the former colonialists".

This one is easy. Melanesian Papua is an occupied country controlled by Indonesians since 1945. The Indonesians are corrupt, oppressive, and rape Papua for resources (=$$) while investing nothing. It is illegal to show the Papuan flag, and the Indonesian Special Forces (Kopassus) have no qualms about killing Papuans.

Talk about global politics! The Grasberg mine in Papua pays US$7,000,000 in taxes PER MONTH. Its ownership is half Indonesian, half US. Zero ownership by Papuans. Per Wikipedia: "the New York Times reported that between 1998 and 2004 Freeport [Grasberg] had given senior military and police officers and military units nearly $20 million." So no wonder US doesn't support freedom for Papua. Worse, US special forces train Kopassus.

So when you show up in Papua with a permit issued by government officials 4000km distant, and despised, what do you expect? This is Papuan land, has been for thousands of years. The Papuans see you as an emissary of Jakarta. What do the Papuans get from your visit? Did you stay in Papuan owned lodging or Indonesian? Were you accompanied by Papuan guides, or Indonesian overseers?

You weren't clear if the "forestry guards, police, customs" were Indonesians or Papuan. If they were Papuan, I hope it's clear now why they may have been uncooperative. If Indonesian, well they're looking for a payoff.

Being an occupied people, the Papuans must obey the Indonesian laws, many of which are simply to control and punish the Papuans. That doesn't mean they respect these laws. Too, as one gets more remote from the government centers, "laws" become less enforceable and more cultural; the Papuans like everyone have cultural taboos & rules which aren't written on paper, and they will enforce them.

This type of situation exists to varying degrees worldwide. The state of New York is ruled by politicians from New York City. The last three state governors have been booted from their position due to illegal activity, and the should-be Lt. governor is in prison. Corruption is rampant. Worse, these-NYC scum write laws simply to punish the Upstate people who vote against them- and who in many cases blatantly ignore their laws. So we have a population of millions who do not respect the laws, nor many of those who enforce them, but must grudgingly abide by them. Thus it's no surprise that people from NYC feel unwelcomed up north.

[wollastoni]

No, they were Indonesian.
No problem with Papuans at all.

[Chuck]

No, they were Indonesian.
No problem with Papuans at all.

Ah. Indonesian civil servants have a hierarchy that is largely cultural but also part of the bureaucracy. Those low level bureaucrats get stuck in Papua (or some other unfriendly-to-them place) and make nothing. Every step up the ladder doubles income, but one still has to be up a ways to make enough money to be comfortable. Corruption/ payoffs is an intrinsic part of the government culture, so for the low-level servants any few bucks they can make are acceptable and much needed. Big "favors" demanding more substantial payoffs go up the chain of command, and the bottom level guy, who may be ultimately responsible for seeing through the favor, gets nothing.

Now, remember that for these poor suckers pushing government regulations in Papua, they are not well liked by the Papuans. They have to constantly watch their back. You'd have to search real hard to find a Papuan who'd shed a tear if every Indonesian in Papua was massacred. Many of the Indonesians in Papua were born there. But there are still two societies, one the master and one the slave. But even for the Papuan-born Indonesian masters, their marching orders, their pay, their everything comes from Jakarta, which oppresses them as well. It's not unlike the old East Germany.

So in general, for the petty bureaucrats, life sucks. Thus the bad attitude. You'll find the same thing in Egypt, India, Sri Lanka, etc.

[Jshuey]

Plus, in Brasil at least - it's hard to imagine that "tourists" like me really add much when they have people who are aggressively sampling across the country and house university collections of South American bugs that put the holdings in the Northern hemisphere to shame. And - they fight the good fight - trying to temper the deforestation you speak of.

No country in the world owns its nature! Only people would like to be the rulers of the world and be able to make decisions for everyone! It is reasonable not to collect insects in countries ruled by "madmen". But putting up with this madness or justifying it is not reasonable. This "craziness" is highly contagious.

Three thoughts about this and your other responses.

• 80% of the citizens of Sri Lanka believe in reincarnation. Mostly Buddhist (as in the soul doesn't go with the new body) but still, people who kill insects for fun are not working towards nirvana - that's for sure. So of course this is a big deal on the island and the fine may be entirely proportional.

• Like it or not, most counties do own "nature" and they have laws regulating hunting, habitat protection, and wildlife trade. Here in the US, individual states enact further regulations protecting habitats.

• Finally, no one on this list is going to be too surprised when they read about your legal issues at some point in the future - are they? Your responses typify the attitudes that get entomologists into trouble around the world.

john

[Chuck]

Plus, in Brasil at least - it's hard to imagine that "tourists" like me really add much when they have people who are aggressively sampling across the country and house university collections of South American bugs that put the holdings in the Northern hemisphere to shame. And - they fight the good fight - trying to temper the deforestation you speak of.

No country in the world owns its nature! Only people would like to be the rulers of the world and be able to make decisions for everyone! It is reasonable not to collect insects in countries ruled by "madmen". But putting up with this madness or justifying it is not reasonable. This "craziness" is highly contagious.

Three thoughts about this and your other responses.

• 80% of the citizens of Sri Lanka believe in reincarnation. Mostly Buddhist (as in the soul doesn't go with the new body) but still, people who kill insects for fun are not working towards nirvana - that's for sure. So of course this is a big deal on the island and the fine may be entirely proportional.

• Like it or not, most counties do own "nature" and they have laws regulating hunting, habitat protection, and wildlife trade. Here in the US, individual states enact further regulations protecting habitats.

• Finally, no one on this list is going to be too surprised when they read about your legal issues at some point in the future - are they? Your responses typify the attitudes that get entomologists into trouble around the world.

john

Interesting points of view. On the one hand, ownership of land and nature some might argue (e.g., hippies and Native Americans) are property of all. That would be nice. In a perfect world, there would be no borders.

Altruistic organizations and countries may see themselves as "stewards." That is, maybe they own the nature, maybe they don't, but they make the decisions to guide the proper use of "nature" to ensure longevity of the plan while enabling use of resources, access for all, etc.

The fact is, in real life, nature is owned at the whim of nations and municipalities, and even individuals. With the enactment of a local ordinance a small, nowhere town can [protect/ restrict/ own] any plant or animal it likes within its jurisdiction. On the micro scale, I do own all the plants and animals and butterflies that are on or over my property; someone may actively disagree but I'm sure they'd leave in haste.

Yes, I already said it- many laws, including environmental and collecting laws- are created out of sheer ignorance; others for profiteering. I will note that many renowned field researchers past and present (e.g. Meek) bent the rules. Does research collecting violate ethics as well as law? My opinion is that scientific research trumps law; that said, when I was overseas researching I did ALL of the bureaucratic compliance 100%.

John- you make me laugh. Do you really believe that about Brazil? I'd be willing to bet two weeks in country and you'd come up with something interesting/ new. Europe and Japan and most of USA are well surveyed, but beyond that even a novice can add to science. Case in point, sometimes I browse US Leps on iNat and I've spotted perhaps a dozen undescribed taxa, most photographed by people who IDed it down to "insect."

[jhyatt]

but still, people who kill insects for fun are not working towards nirvana - that's for sure.

Hmmm... I've always thought nirvana to be a rather flexible concept. I think I remember enough of the quote to paraphrase Nabokov, who wrote something like "heaven is to be with a net among rare butterflies and their food plants." I'll have to dig out the exact wording.

[Jshuey]

John- you make me laugh. Do you really believe that about Brazil? I'd be willing to bet two weeks in country and you'd come up with something interesting/ new. Europe and Japan and most of USA are well surveyed, but beyond that even a novice can add to science. Case in point, sometimes I browse US Leps on iNat and I've spotted perhaps a dozen undescribed taxa, most photographed by people who IDed it down to "insect."

With net in hand - I spent about 8 weeks in the field in Brazil (Parana) about 15 years back. I had two field assistants and we worked with the motto - "if it flies, it dies". Because I paid for the field help, al material returned with me - probably between 3-4,000 specimens of butterflies. That work yielded a couple singletons of undescribed species that the University collection already had in long-ish series and one state record (which I left for them).

The country really is pretty well sampled - at least in areas that are assessable. Faculty in Brazil get generous funding to conduct field work as part of their positions. During my little forays in the south-east, the university faculty and students were out on their own adventures, going up Amazon tributaries on two trips to sample previously un-sampled portions of the basin. It seemed to me that there was one of these trips every couple of months to some of the most remote portions of the country - and that was just one university (and not the largest of them either). I believe that they came back with tens-of-thousands of bugs, and spent the next few weeks processing the samples. It is a very different model down there re/ research funding. As Olaf Mielke likes to say "so many new species, so little time". So my take is, they know most of the un-named butterflies across the country from material in the collections. But it takes trained people and time to get names assigned.

So yep - I stand by what I said. Of course there are new things yet to be found, and populations of those endangered papilios hidden around the country - but the people who live and work there know so much more about where to look that do "tourists" like us, who just blunder around.

john

[Jshuey]

but still, people who kill insects for fun are not working towards nirvana - that's for sure.

Hmmm... I've always thought nirvana to be a rather flexible concept. I think I remember enough of the quote to paraphrase Nabokov, who wrote something like "heaven is to be with a net among rare butterflies and their food plants." I'll have to dig out the exact wording.

I've always thought of nirvana as a condition of bliss brought on by not desiring anything - or something like that. Quite the opposite of someone with a net screaming - I gotta catch that one"!

I never viewed myself as on that particular path.

j

[Cassidinae]

Your responses typify the attitudes that get entomologists into trouble around the world.

Sorry John, but I lived in a "socialist camp" (a socialist country in the middle of Europe under the rule of the all-powerful Soviet Union) You in the US live in a "different reality" (something called the "American Dream"?) Under socialism, we were taught: "Shut up and walk", you'll be fine (= you won't have problems)! Do you know the quote by E. Burke? "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

Sure, as long as I "shut up" and be a dutiful citizen and agree to all the laws and regulations that "supremacy" prepares for me, I'll have peace of mind! If you think that will help anything, I don't think so.

[Cassidinae]

Now you just wait a minute. Politics is banned here buddy. Drop it.
I could see this topic was going political. This needs removed asap.
This really burns my ass. It's immature, it's uncalled for and you need to
stick to the hobby.
Looks like you probably offended some Germans as well. Good job.

What is meant by politics? If I write about world events, is that politics? Then politics is everything. Is what Chuck wrote in response to Wollastoni (how it works in Indonesia) politics?

The situation in Indonesia can be written here, but as soon as something was written about the situation in the USA (or Germany), would it be a problem? Maybe I inadvertently touched "someone's national honor" (and probably no one from Indonesia follows the forum).

Maybe try to understand that people from countries with different historical experiences are more susceptible to "political correctness" because it is the first step towards totalitarianism! And unfortunately no country is immune to totalitarianism!

[Chuck]

What is meant by politics? If I write about world events, is that politics? Then politics is everything. Is what Chuck wrote in response to Wollastoni (how it works in Indonesia) politics?

The situation in Indonesia can be written here, but as soon as something was written about the situation in the USA (or Germany), would it be a problem? Maybe I inadvertently touched "someone's national honor" (and probably no one from Indonesia follows the forum).

It is an interesting conundrum, because politics is at the heart of EVERYTHING! It touches absolutely everything we do, read, and think about. Economics is the #1 driver of everything, and Politics is the manipulation of economics. It sounds so stupid not to be able to talk about something that influences everything.

BUT politics, particularly petty stuff, is well known to divide people. So for sake of retaining members (= traffic =money) it is often quashed on forums. In a way, it's refreshing. I can read the news about politics; heck I can hardly avoid it. I don't need to know about it here.

[adamcotton]

Simply put, it is fine to discuss generalities of a political nature which are relevant to insects, but don't be 'blunt' by associating events or policies with particular political parties or politicians - in any country, not just the US.

It is way over the limit to tell people who to vote for if they want x, y or z (good, bad or terrible etc etc) in a post, even if it was not meant to be a serious endorsement.

Adam.

[Trehopr1]

How in the world do some subjects on this forum spin off on a tangent of nothing but, negativity and despair in reading ? Sure, I could choose not to read the thread which is senselessly being "beaten like a dead horse" and yet, unless somebody steps in to say "hey that's enough"; then they continue like a form of cancer ----ever spreading.

Cassidinae, both John and Adam have made solid and legitimate remarks/answers to your tirade of comments. Why does one simple posting that two collectors in Sri Lanka were busted by the government and fined for collecting insects in national park areas cause you "personally" so much bother and unrest ?

There is so much more to talk about here on the forum (as related to insects) !

You go by the moniker of Cassidinae so why aren't you instead showing us pictures of tortoise beetles or putting up a thread discussing them. It would be a lot more constructive !

I'm not trying to be a wise guy here. My moniker is Trehopr1. And guess what ----- you will find a thread about treehoppers with a fair number of pictures included. I love them so, I cobbled together an article about them.

The point is that no one here is going to change your ideas/opinions about a given topic but, there is a point where incessantly pursuing a subject down a dead-end road is pointless....

Seriously, there are now two pages of mostly "heated" discussion here on some collectors bad luck/misfortune for being uninformed, stupid, or both.

Let's call it a finish to this subject....