Don't collect in Sri Lanka!

[adamcotton]

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/ckgwgn4ww0jo

Butterfly thieves handed $200,000 fine

An Italian father and his son have been fined 60 million Sri Lankan rupees ($200,000; £150,000) for trying to smuggle hundreds of endemic insects - including 92 species of butterflies - out of a safari park.
Rangers at Yala National Park arrested Luigi Ferrari, 68, and his 28-year-old son Mattia on 8 May this year after they were found with jars containing the insects.
The men had lured the insects with animal attractants and planned on using wax sachets to chemically preserve them, investigations show.
They were convicted in early September of illegal collection, possession and transportation of the insects, and handed the highest-ever fine for wildlife crime in the country.

(more information on the page).

Adam.

[wollastoni]

A chinese guy had the same experience few years ago. He spent few days in jail, time to negotiate the fine.

They won't be charged $200,000 but it will cost them a lot, + their reputation. His photo is now everywhere in Italy : https://corrieredibologna.corriere.it/n ... bxlk.shtml

Don't collect without permits abroad... too dangerous.
+ it ruins our reputation and may trigger other anti-science laws.

[wollastoni]

BTW please read the Italian article (it is much more complete). Use deepl.com to translate it if needed.

[adamcotton]

Don't collect without permits abroad... too dangerous.

It depends on the country. Many are definitely a complete 'no, no' for collecting nowadays, whereas others are absolutely safe as long as you don't collect in protected areas such as national parks, and don't catch protected species. If you want to collect in another country check up carefully on the regulations, both for collecting, export and import to your own country before deciding where you want to go.

Of course, countries that do not allow foreigners to collect also don't allow collecting by locals; so it's a good idea to contact a local in the country you would like to go to to find out the situation - but don't take everything said as 'absolute fact' without corroboration.

Adam.

[Cassidinae]

It's unbelievable that nowadays some entomologists still don't know that there are total crooks and extortionists in Sri Lanka and that it's really impossible to catch insects there!

[Borearctia]

Latest news:
After 4 months in Sri Lanka and payment of a fine of 180,000 euros, the two Italians were authorised to leave the country. They are already back in Italy.

[wollastoni]

Good for them !

[Chuck]

180k Euros - wonder whose pocket that went into. Third world cesspit countries who learned bureaucracy from the Brits.

[Cassidinae]

180k Euros - wonder whose pocket that went into. Third world cesspit countries who learned bureaucracy from the Brits.

Plus, now the fuc**rs know that the "white man" can be blackmailed more and more! Opportunity for another fine increase Next time the hapless entomologist will need to be bailed out by the government. I would suspend all international aid projects to Ceylon for such actions!

[Chuck]

I'm uncertain how many times an entomologist has been bailed out by a government; certainly not US government.

Politicians invoke these outright bans for a variety of reasons; sometimes it's because they think you're stealing valuable natural resources and want a cut, sometimes it's to keep prying eyes out of the rainforest (eg Brazil.) Sometimes it's in retaliation for cultural offenses such as when famous Lepidopterists skip the country loaded with unlicensed specimens.

Note too that professionals can get permits for many "no go" countries. Simply, amateurs are seen as useless, and surely the US government does nothing to change that perception.

Too, with my tinfoil hat on, I suspect there are some professionals who want to keep amateurs out because it's a territorial position; I can say with certainty that's the case with US Defense POW/MIA Accounting Agency (DPAA) which has worked extensively to torpedo non-governmental organizations which have proven to be far more successful than DPAA.

In any event, they're serious, and I think most collectors know which countries are off limits, so frankly it's stupid to take the risk. I think though that people don't realize the risk of being busted in a foreign country- what might cost you a $5000 fine in USA may be 10 years in prison in India, but people don't think anything that rediculous could come of it. They're wrong.

[Jshuey]

180k Euros - wonder whose pocket that went into. Third world cesspit countries who learned bureaucracy from the Brits.

Plus, now the fuc**rs know that the "white man" can be blackmailed more and more! Opportunity for another fine increase Next time the hapless entomologist will need to be bailed out by the government. I would suspend all international aid projects to Ceylon for such actions!

It's worth noting that when you go into a country and break its laws and get caught - you should expect to be prosecuted. In my opinion - it's nice that they allowed them to get away with playing a fine. Entomologists have always had problems with the concept of "rule of law" - but perhaps it is time we realize that the concept applies to us as well.

John

[Chuck]

I think many entomologists who go overseas do it for "the greater good." I've spent tens of thousands of MY dollars in field work "for the greater good" - to explore strange new worlds; to seek out new life and new civilizations; to boldly go where no man has gone before!

As nature is destroyed, it is imperative to seek, find, and acknowledge. How many wonderful butterflies (and even skippers) are now extinct? How many are being lost in the mass deforestations in Brazil and India and Sumatra and Papua? Perhaps it is a higher calling to discover, and perhaps save, in violation of man's arbitrary laws.

[Jshuey]

I think many entomologists who go overseas do it for "the greater good." I've spent tens of thousands of MY dollars in field work "for the greater good" - to explore strange new worlds; to seek out new life and new civilizations; to boldly go where no man has gone before!

As nature is destroyed, it is imperative to seek, find, and acknowledge. How many wonderful butterflies (and even skippers) are now extinct? How many are being lost in the mass deforestations in Brazil and India and Sumatra and Papua? Perhaps it is a higher calling to discover, and perhaps save, in violation of man's arbitrary laws.

I don't disagree with anything you say here. And I've spent plenty of money traveling - rationalizing it as for the greater good even though I really do it because I love traveling in Latin America. But for the last 20+ years, I have tempered my collecting "urge" recognizing that if I don't have a permit - it's better to photograph. Plus, in Brasil at least - it's hard to imagine that "tourists" like me really add much when they have people who are aggressively sampling across the country and house university collections of South American bugs that put the holdings in the Northern hemisphere to shame. And - they fight the good fight - trying to temper the deforestation you speak of.

For me, this transition from a "mad collector of bugs" to someone who is a bit more rational (at least in my opinion) took some time and mental adjustment.

Here is a bug I covet - but at least I got a photo near Brasilia once - Sophista latifasciata

John

[Trehopr1]

Very well founded thoughts indeed John on this subject.
One has to RESPECT the sovereignty and laws of any host foreign country. Also "tempering" one's desire to capture/collect and instead photograph when necessary all seems very sensible and reasonable in these modern times.

Well done.

[Chuck]

One has to RESPECT the sovereignty and laws of any host foreign country.

Not really. One has to abide by them in the hopes of avoiding some of the troubles.

I don't respect the law of Irondequoit NY which prohibits taking tea with a lady on board a boat after sunset. In fact, I have violated it. And during the short period I lived in the cesspool Rochester NY, I indeed tried to violate the law by procuring a pet Tasmanian Tiger which is banned by name.

I get a bit confused about "host nation." Would that be the laws, cultural and written, of occupied Papua or Indonesia? Tibetan or Chinese? What about Polish law? Would that be Prussian, pre-1935 elected government laws, or the laws developed partly by USSR and partly by those who illegally overthrew the government and finally regained power post-1990? Must I respect Taliban law if in Afghanistan? But that could land me in big trouble in the northern states.

[Trehopr1]

I think you're getting a little "over-technical" here Chuck. Like reading into sentences...

My statement is pretty cut and dry. If you go to a foreign country with the intent to catch/collect (anything) then you should firstly be aware of whether you can collect there AT ALL and exactly where it is not allowed.

That means looking into these details before you ever go. If there are any doubts then take some pictures like John said.

If an offending adventurer/collector disregards the details that they should be well aware of (which means disrespecting present laws) of a country you don't live in then if you are caught you deserve what they slap on you.

[Cassidinae]

It's worth noting that when you go into a country and break its laws and get caught - you should expect to be prosecuted. In my opinion - it's nice that they allowed them to get away with playing a fine. Entomologists have always had problems with the concept of "rule of law" - but perhaps it is time we realize that the concept applies to us as well.

John

There is usually such a thing as "proportionality of punishment"!!! John, do you think the fine was adequate?

[Chuck]

There is usually such a thing as "proportionality of punishment"!!!

And that's where foreign visitors get into trouble. And not just with the law- the greatest misunderstanding of proportion is for cultural offenses.

Two young Germans arrived into NYC carrying automatic pocket knives. They didn't know it was illegal, so the "proportionality of punishment" to them was zero, right? But they found out otherwise. They tried common sense appeals "But you people have GUNS!" which meant nothing to the NYC cops who just want to enforce, enforce, enforce. So they were arrested and tossed in jail.

[Cassidinae]

Plus, in Brasil at least - it's hard to imagine that "tourists" like me really add much when they have people who are aggressively sampling across the country and house university collections of South American bugs that put the holdings in the Northern hemisphere to shame. And - they fight the good fight - trying to temper the deforestation you speak of.

No country in the world owns its nature! Only people would like to be the rulers of the world and be able to make decisions for everyone! It is reasonable not to collect insects in countries ruled by "madmen". But putting up with this madness or justifying it is not reasonable. This "craziness" is highly contagious.

[Cassidinae]

If an offending adventurer/collector disregards the details that they should be well aware of (which means disrespecting present laws) of a country you don't live in then if you are caught you deserve what they slap on you.

Really? And why don't they measure with the same meter? Or is it common for the US to fine foreign tourists 1000x more for the same offense than they would a US citizen? You're kidding right?