Ornithoptera victoriae rubianus "niclasi"

[Chuck]

As a general warning, there's a question on the Insect Collector proboard forum about how to get the right shade of blue with UV to fake Ornithoptera victoriae rubanus form niclasi.

If nothing else, be forewarned that there's at least one new individual expressing interest in fabricating these because "this artificial form is very sought after"

I think the artificial form isn't in demand, but those believing it to be a true niclasi might be fooled into paying big money.

Here's an old one from the archived forum, a guy scammed by a fake niclasi and Ebay would not refund the money. https://archive.insectnet.com/thread/62 ... ptera-help

[Trehopr1]

Thank you kindly Chuck for bringing up this topic.

Alerts like this to the members of the forum put everyone on the same page of understanding that clever scammers of all kinds never rest....

[Parnassius26]

is there a natural form niclasi? Or is just completely fabricated?

[jhyatt]

Good question! And I'd love to know how these "blue" aberrations are manufactured. Exposure to UV everyone says, but what wavelength? How intense? For how long?

I tried exposing an old beat-up rag of a dataless O. p. poseidon to short-wavelength UV overnight (low pressure mercury vapor, peak at 2537 angstroms), a few watts at about 3" from the bug just to see what happens, and nothing at all changed.

[kevinkk]

As a general warning, there's a question on the Insect Collector proboard forum about how to get the right shade of blue with UV to fake Ornithoptera victoriae rubanus form niclasi.

Is this legitimate study, or a prelude to fraud? I am not too concerned, after Charles Limmer stopped selling, Ornithoptera are out of my reach, but perhaps an inquiry like this should get some scrutiny from management.

[Chuck]

As a general warning, there's a question on the Insect Collector proboard forum about how to get the right shade of blue with UV to fake Ornithoptera victoriae rubanus form niclasi.

Is this legitimate study, or a prelude to fraud? I am not too concerned, after Charles Limmer stopped selling, Ornithoptera are out of my reach, but perhaps an inquiry like this should get some scrutiny from management.

If you read it, the poster makes it pretty clear they want to know what to do in order to profit. They know that some method turns the OV an obvious fake blue, but were looking for the secret sauce to get them just right.

Most of my Ornithoptera are naturally blue. I suppose I could experiment with others, but don't have the time. And, if I did discover the secret, all I could do is reveal it so the market floods with quality fakes. Why bother?

[Chuck]

Good question! And I'd love to know how these "blue" aberrations are manufactured. Exposure to UV everyone says, but what wavelength? How intense? For how long?

I tried exposing an old beat-up rag of a dataless O. p. poseidon to short-wavelength UV overnight (low pressure mercury vapor, peak at 2537 angstroms), a few watts at about 3" from the bug just to see what happens, and nothing at all changed.

I think it's probably longer. Most OV experience roughly 12 hours of daylight (UV), so figure, what, six hours of bright UV? And they don't turn blue, even over a couple weeks lifetime. So it's probably more than 100 hours.

[wollastoni]

I personally think all niclasi forms are artificial (voluntarily or not).
Of course, some collectors who paid high prices for them will disagree.

I am still waiting for a live picture of a fresh niclasi to change my mind. Some collectors, who know they are fake, are still paying high prices for them because they are really beautiful.

[adamcotton]

I am still waiting for a live picture of a fresh niclasi to change my mind.

You will have to wait for ever, I suspect. The same author described form 'niclasi' in 3 different subspecies of Ornithoptera victoriae, but strangely no blue specimens were ever seen back in the old days.

In another publication the same author described a form of Papilio ulysses from a small island near SE Ceram. This has thin blue submarginal lunules on the hindwings. I have seen magnified photos of a 'paratype' (infrasubspecific names cannot have types) and can confirm that the scales have been glued onto the wings. I suspect that the author was scammed.

Adam.

[Chuck]

I brought four niclasi, plus “normal” back from Rannonga. I can’t say what makes them blue, but these specimens had not been treated with UV- there was no power on the island then. I paid the same for niclasi as I did the typical.

I can say that OV have a very high rate of various mutations (forms). I had some spectacular oddities. My favorite is the gold form, one of which I still have.

As far as waiting for a photo, good luck. Not many people go to Rannonga.

[wollastoni]

Interesting Chuck, were your niclasi, old specimens. Maybe the sun itself can turn OV blue...

[adamcotton]

Indeed it is possible that they were spread in the sun until they turned blue, then relaxed and papered - but then why do that and then charge the same amount for them?

I checked Haugum & Low's monograph (part I, from 1978) which absolutely does not mention any blue forms of O. victoriae, only some RED aberrations.

Perhaps a blue genetic mutation occurred on Rannonga relatively recently.

Adam.

[Chuck]

Niclasi pre-dates my first arrival on Rannonga, which was early 2001. I didn’t see any (alive or papered) then, IIRC it was 2003.

During this period Solomon Islands was in civil war, so the ability to get papered specimens from a remote island to the only international resellers and the airfield was limited. Before 1998 there had been a thriving export market, so virtually every remote village would collect pupae then sell adults, but that died in 1998. By 2001 most villages might have four OV papered “just in case” but would routinely have to toss them out due to rot and lack of a buyer. So buying OV was limited to what some village might have on hand.


I can’t imagine on Rannonga especially they’d go to any trouble to change the rot-prone OV into niclasi. The little income they were getting was from carved river stones, not Ornithoptera.

Note too, the visual difference between wild-supplied niclasi and EBay fakes is significant. How would one modify ONLY the large green areas and not everything else?


Keep in mind (concerning island-modified niclasi theory) that OV are common as dirt. On nearby Rendova Island, at least, the kids play a game- scratch your name on the wings, release it, and see if it gets recaptured. On these remote islands any moron can walk to the edge of the rain forest and return with pupae in 15 minutes.

[Parnassius26]

I am still waiting for a live picture of a fresh niclasi to change my mind.

You will have to wait for ever, I suspect. The same author described form 'niclasi' in 3 different subspecies of Ornithoptera victoriae, but strangely no blue specimens were ever seen back in the old days.

In another publication the same author described a form of Papilio ulysses from a small island near SE Ceram. This has thin blue submarginal lunules on the hindwings. I have seen magnified photos of a 'paratype' (infrasubspecific names cannot have types) and can confirm that the scales have been glued onto the wings. I suspect that the author was scammed.

Adam.

is it the reference to f. elisabethae from Pombo?

[Chuck]

Going from memory here, of both what I’ve had in hand and seen in institutional collections and eBay-

I have only seen niclasi in ssp rubianus

The gold form I believe is in all ssp, though more common in Bougainville.

The red form in all ssp, except maybe epiphanes.


I’m not up on all the named forms of OV. There are other color anomalies I’ve seen that are not named, such as one where the green and yellow in the male on the ventral side is all uniform olive drab. And of course more of one color than normal, larger and smaller areas of color, etc. OV are, as I’ve said, extremely variable.

[adamcotton]

is it the reference to f. elisabethae from Pombo?

Yes, that's the one. The scales in the submarginal lunules are not in line as in nature but at all different angles, unlike scales on the rest of the wings, and traces of the glue are visible. I don't want to blame the author who was almost certainly scammed by an unscrupulous seller, so I didn't name him.

Adam.

[Parnassius26]

as far as I am concered, authors caught them by themselves. Also recently I saw available male for sale and scales look ok to me.

https://64online.jp/auction/detail.php?n=1068786

[adamcotton]

I was sent magnified photos of the hindwing of a 'paratype' in a European Achillides collection (specimen bought from one of the authors), and the scales on that one were definitely glued and not natural. I looked at the specimen in the link, and I am suspicious because the opposing lunules are not uniform. You cannot see the orientation of the scales without much higher magnification than on the website.

If wild collected specimens really do have these lunules with natural blue scales then you have to ask why was the 'paratype' an artefact.

Adam.

[Chuck]

If wild collected specimens really do have these lunules with natural blue scales then you have to ask why was the 'paratype' an artefact.

Adam.

Wouldn’t be the first “close enough” paratype. New sp, ssp, forms etc often are collected before there is an assigned type. If the author needed a photo he might be willing to overlook a few issues. Or need stronger glasses.


Said specimen may not be fraud. Pacific Islanders want to please visitors; you want one with blue lunules, it’s morally ok to make you one. Though cutting lunules does not sound like an island project.

What is fraud is making a fake and pawning it as original. Note the ramifications we see with niclasi, where it is now doubted if it really exists. It does exist as “specimens that come from Rannonga” but the cause is unknown.

I can say that the normal green form of rubianus emerges green, so not like they emerge blue and turn green. The only niclasi I ever saw were from Rannonga. Ask Laurie what he’s seen.


But blue genetic morphs of green Ornithoptera are not unknown. As I am sure I mentioned before, I caught and carried around a blue Ornithoptera on Magnetic Island AUS, finally releasing it and THEN realizing why I struggled with not keeping it.

[adamcotton]

Interestingly the paler blue Ornithoptera aesacus from Obi Island is actually green when it emerges from the pupa and turns blue as the wings dry.

The only niclasi I ever saw were from Rannonga.

It is quite likely there is a genetic mutation from Rannonga, but presumably 'niclasi' from other islands are artefacts, made by exposing spread dry specimens to UV light. Actually, I wonder whether part of the process could be to expose the newly relaxed specimen to UV light before it has dried, rather than exposing a dry specimen.

Adam.