Florida collecting issues

[Chuck]

Wow, great that such a celebrity as JV Calhoun has joined us! I hope you stick around.

John, my NE Tiger Swallowtail field work is coming to a close; we're moving to FL. I don't know beans about what there is to research in FL. I probably should start a different thread on this, but hope I can get some guidance on where to start.

[JVCalhoun]

Thanks for the warm welcome, though I'm not sure I deserve the acclaim!

As for studying butterflies in Florida, this can be a bit challenging. I don't mean to sound pessimistic, but given the state's growing population and rapid development, the best habitats are now restricted to county parks, state parks, state wildlife management areas, state forests, and national forests. Legitimately collecting specimens requires permits in these areas. Years ago, permits were not really required on state lands, but now local personnel will stop and inquire if they see someone walking around with a net. Other folks visiting those areas will sometimes do the same. South Florida is really tough, as good sites outside protected lands are few and far between. Vacant lots and roadsides can still be productive, especially in northern Florida. It may take some getting used to, but hopefully you will find something of interest to study!

Just a word of warning from someone who's lived in Florida for 35 years: don't live too close to the coast, and stay out of flood zones. You should see how much damage was caused around Tampa Bay this year by Hurricane Milton, and it wasn't even as devastating as it could have been.

[Chuck]

state wildlife management areas, state forests, and national forests.

FL WMAs and National Forests? I know of no other state that restricts WMAs, and National Forests are federally controlled, and as far as I've been told- and read from NFS- there is no permit to collect. Can you kindly add some clarity?

[jhyatt]

I once got asked to leave a Georgia coastal WMA while collecting. The DNR man said that I could not collect arthropods in a WMA without a permit. I asked him to give me the name of the person to whom I should apply for a permit. He gave me the name of a regional manager. When I called her, she said something like 'Oh no, that's not correct! You don't need a permit to collect inverts of any type in a GA WMA. That DRN agent was incorrect'. But she sent me a letter giving me permission to collect in all WMAs in her district, just in case I ran into another problem

Goes to show, one can run into problems collecting due to ill-nformed officers, and even though you are in the right, it can cost a day's collecting and some time and trouble later on.

jh

[JVCalhoun]

Unfortunately, there is some complexity when it comes to Florida WMAs and Florida state forests. They often overlap, and each is regulated by different state agencies. For example, I have been conducting a butterfly survey of a Florida state forest for four years, and the area where I am doing the field work is within a wildlife management area inside the state forest. While the forest is regulated by the Department of Agriculture, the WMA is overseen by the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission. The Dept. of Agriculture requires a "letter of authorization" (=permit) to remove Lepidoptera specimens. I have to provide a status report, and apply for a permit every year, in which the final disposition of the specimens must be stated (museum, university etc.). Rules for Florida WMAs differ, though their general rules state that "No person shall cut, damage or remove any natural, man-made or cultural resource without written authorization of the landowner or primary land manager." It's always best to check out specific areas before conducting any field work that involves collecting.

As for national forests, this has been discussed quite a bit on this group. A permit is not needed for "recreational activities," but a permit is required for so-called research purposes (https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/florida/ ... prd1031294). This definition is pretty nebulous. As John Hyatt just mentioned, there is always the chance that an overzealous forest employee would approach anyone with a net about their intentions. Personally, I prefer to get a permit, as most of my activities are more research-oriented. Again, it's best to inquire before you go.

[JVCalhoun]

By the way, the "written authorization of the landowner or primary land manager" would come from the Dept. of Agriculture for any WMAs that exist within state forests, as they are the primary land managers. In Florida, many WMAs are located within state forest lands, making the Dept. of Agriculture the ultimate regulatory authority. The Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission is responsible for managing hunting, fishing, etc. within the WMAs. It's an interesting relationship, which probably confuses some members of those agencies.

John

[Chuck]

Good info Mr. Calhoun, thank you.

I have a research permit for NY State Parks, approval from the Seneca Nation, and also from one of the regional land trust organizations. It's easy up this way now since I'm a known entity. So I guess when I get to Florida, and figure out what needs field work, I'll have to start chasing down permits.

What I've found in NY is, beyond the changing taxonomy based on genetics, the ranges of many species is unknown. Hard to believe for NY. And just yesterday- yes, in November! I found the second specimen of a southern grasshopper up here. Most of my research (in NY, and wordwide) involves spending time in the field, but also going places nobody wants to go to, and in the heat of summer.

I wonder- is Florida similar? Backyard species are well known, but many others are not? Or are new details only coming from Everglades (it's not like there's mountains to climb and search.)

[JVCalhoun]

I agree that persistence often leads to surprising discoveries. That being said, most of the butterfly species in Florida are relatively well understood, though there are always bizarre records of tropical species turning up in northern Florida, and there are several additional species that could still turn up in the state (e.g., P. bulenta). There are interesting things going on in the panhandle in association with that suture zone, and some Neotropical species that occur in South Florida should probably be reexamined to better understand their subspecific status (e.g., E. atala, and historical vs more recent populations of C. thomasi).

John

[vabrou]

jhyatt,

You may remember that in 2011 (13 years ago) I encountered a Forest Ranger that decided to make up his own personal permitting system, unbeknownst to the Forest Service in order to collect insects in the National Forest areas in the state of Louisiana. This is not an uncommon situation caused by numerous useless and unnecessary government employees. I knew that this overzealous employee was WRONG. I requested the matter be addressed for all of the National Forest locations in North America. Attached is the official response from the Head office of the Nat. Forest Service. After this, I was never again bothered by this clown. I was assured that this wayward employee would be redirected by senior management.

Here in the US our government is massively out of control. There are 23.7 million full-time and part-time employees of our Government, 4.0 million federal employees, (excluding armed forces), 5.5 million state employees, 14.2 million local government employees. political comments removed by moderator

[vabrou]

edited by admin

[eurytides]

I think I read somewhere we were not to discuss religion or politics here. I have no issue with this. And while free speech is important, this isn’t a public forum. This forum is owned by someone who pays for it to be hosted. They have the right to delete what they want or to deny individuals membership. It’s like golf clubs. You can be denied entrance if you don’t follow a dress code for example.

[wollastoni]

Hello Vernon : stick to our rules. You agreed to them by registering to the forum.
I fully support Adam's action about your post. No politics here.

BTW our moderation is SO STRICT that we have edited 6 posts on about 2247 in that last year (if I exclude spams).

And while I am here, if you stay on InsectNet, please stop increasing the size of your words. It looks horrible and gives the feeling you are shouting. If it is for reading purpose, you can easily increase the size of all letters on your screen editing your browser parameters.

Welcome John. And thank you for this useful information for our members.

[Chuck]

Thanks Vernon, that letter on USDA letterhead concerning collecting in National Forests is invaluable. Nothing beats written instructions from the oversight agency. You did address various "opinions" from the uninformed, including from the agency employees that should know; I too have run into this, and it cost me a good chunk of money, following instructions from just such people. Why we allow government employees to voice "opinion" or take action, and not actually knowing what they're talking about, is beyond me, but as you pointed out it's all too common.

In some cases, "authorities" make rules based on their own feelings. Generally, because they can get away with it. This promulgates fake information particularly on the internet because anecdotal events & information get repeated, without vetting, and are taken up as truth. This forum went round-and-round on CITES with so many "opinions" from those who couldn't be bothered to read CITES.

I'm going to pick on my friend:

It’s like golf clubs. You can be denied entrance if you don’t follow a dress code for example.

He doesn't belong to a golf club. He never has. I don't know this, but I'll put money on it. So he's repeating what he's been told by somebody, or "conventional wisdom." He's generalizing, which is not applicable to all golf clubs. And dress code is determined also if you arrive in a Kia or an AMG Mercedes. And on and on.

I could have sworn there was a thread on collecting in National Parks and National Forests, but I could not find it. I wonder if one of the mods might split this off as a new topic, since the posted letter is priceless, and the discussion is smattered all over various threads.

[Chuck]

There are interesting things going on in the panhandle in association with that suture zone,

John

Thanks John, I've noted that. That's a long drive from our future home!

Is Lepidoptery very active in FL? I ask because in NY it's about dead; there's so much we don't know about Leps in NY simply because virtually nobody has done any field work since the 1970s. Ditto the northern 3/4 of Pennsylvania.

[eurytides]

You are right Chuck, I have never belonged to a golf club and that was a generalization. However, when I have gone to high end golf clubs for work functions, there was always a dress code (commonly, no jeans). But the point remains that a lot of private groups have rules that need to be followed and insectnet is no different.

[Chuck]

But the point remains that a lot of private groups have rules that need to be followed and insectnet is no different.

We're getting way off topic, but what's new with forums?

You are right of course. Some golf clubs are pretty relaxed, and some have very strict rules to keep out the riff raff. Some people don't like arbitrary rules, some feel their contribution to the golf club enables them to do as they wish. I just don't want to see this forum go the way of our favorite golf club / restaurant and get plowed under because of an imbalance between key members and the owners to the point that there weren't enough members.

And we've lost members over this. Really sharp members. Most people feel that their time and efforts have been wasted when they take the time to share something and it surreptitiously disappears. Worse is when content is edited in a manner that could impact meaning. The most effective means of balancing controls and contributor's feelings is to handle things one-on-one via PM.

[Chuck]

there is some complexity when it comes to Florida WMAs and Florida state forests. They often overlap,

I had noticed that, and have only seen that in FL. Wait...a state park embedded in a WMA? Or is it the other way around? It is perplexing!

The closest I can think of is in NY, the Adirondack Park (largest park in contiguous USA) is 52% privately owned- and the regulatory environment doesn't apply to private land. Figuring out what is owned by whom I would presume is a real chore- in NY and FL.

[kevinkk]

BTW our moderation is SO STRICT that we have edited 6 posts on about 2247 in that last year (if I exclude spams).

Interesting, and appreciated. I see all caps as shouting, but larger font not so much. I use larger font emailing sometimes.

[eurytides]

I agree Chuck. There's a balance...and what one might consider too political, another might not. I'm not sure what Vernon wrote because it was removed by the time I read it. However, Adam is well respected here and I have never seen him to be unreasonable or rash. If he decided something was too political for the forum, I defer to his judgement.

[adamcotton]

Just to be clear, I deleted about half of the last paragraph (maybe 3 lines) which was very derogatory towards one named US political party. This was not subtle and was absolutely contrary to the forum rules. If I had not deleted it there would have been more fall-out than can be seen above.

Adam.