Ornithoptera priamus poseidon female form "Kirschi"

[Papilio_indra]

I purchased this specimen from the Insect Farming and Trading Agency in Papua New Guinea in 1983. I've often wondered if the coloration pattern here is natural or if it is the result of selective breeding. Thanks for any information that you may have - Dale

[Trehopr1]

I once owned one of these myself however, I wound up trading it with another collector who really wanted it as a unique addition to his ornithoptera collection.

I believe this is without doubt selective breeding at work because I have seen my share of typical females (spread out over at least 15 different collections) and have never seen a "true" yellow form.

The early 1980s were the very beginnings of crossbreeding experiments by those who dabbled in ornithoptera and within 20 years there were some marvelous hybrids produced from species that would have never met in nature.

Still, it is a unique "created" form produced for a stretch of the mid-1980s.

Thank you for sharing it with us....

[Papilio_indra]

Thanks Trehopr1 for your helpful insights on this butterfly. Apparently the male siblings of these "Kirschi" females were not unique enough to have their own name designation.

[Chuck]

I'd not heard of IFTA doing any selective breeding, though it's possible. I don't know that it would be necessary, as in my observation of OP and OV probably 50% of individuals are some form or another; the "typical" specimens are those that wind up on the general market.

What I do wonder is how the green got on a female, specifically how this can happen.

[adamcotton]

This specimen does not fit the description of form kirschi, particularly in the forewings. Here is a translation of the description:

"The forewings of this huge butterfly are almost entirely black, the normal white spots being very reduced. On the contrary, the hindwings are largely invaded along the outer edge by a single large yellowish white confluent spot, sprinkled with blackish scales and in the middle marked with four round black spots."

Adam.

[Chuck]

Might I go so far as to say it exhibits gynandromorphic attributes?

[adamcotton]

Might I go so far as to say it exhibits gynandromorphic attributes?

I seem to remember seeing photos of females with green scales like this before. Whether these are the result of gynandromorphism is difficult to ascertain. I would expect that a mosaic gynandromorph would not be symmetrical, unlike this specimen. It is certainly interesting.

Adam.

[Panacanthus]

This is my specimen of "kirschi". However, mine was sold to me as "kirschi-decora". It was purchased in 1997 from Insect World. There was no mention whatsoever of it being a gynandromorph. Nor was there mention of it being created with selective breeding. However, that obviously does not prove anything one way or the other. My impression, though, has always been that it is simply a relatively rare form/variation which can occur naturally. It would be great to find out more actual facts - does anyone have the new "outstanding birdwing butterflies" book? I wonder if it is covered in that.

Kirschi IN.jpg (749.84 KiB) Viewed 8140 times

There is a female "form" of aesacus with blue scales. Another example of male colored scales being present on a female. Unfortunately, "easier said than captured in a photo"! With the correct angle and lighting, this female's hindwings are almost fully covered in shimmering blue scales. I don't know any more about "how or why" this occurs. I've seen a couple others similar to it. I also do not know if it has a form name.

Aesacus IN.jpg (788.51 KiB) Viewed 8140 times

[Trehopr1]

Those are some stunningly nice examples you have there panacanthus !

Once again superb preparation and outstanding photography....

That female aesacus really shows well in the photograph the bluish coloration you speak of. Impeccable example !

[Papilio_indra]

Panacanthus, those are fabulous specimens and photographs! I hadn't heard of the designation for a female O. p. p. "kirschi-decora" so I pulled out the original price sheet from IFTA in 1981 to check again. It shows simply var kirschi, second listing from the top under Ornithoptera.

For those that haven't seen these price lists from the Insect Farming and Trading Agency, which is out of business now, the prices shown are in PNG Kina, which at the time were equivalent to approximately 1.22 US dollars (K1.00 = $1.22). The hard copy of the price list that I have has poor resolution and this is the best I could do to enhance it.

For a while in the early 1980"s I was a little overenthusiastic and ordered far more specimens than I could possible spread and curate from this agency and to this day I still have dozens of specimens stored in their original glassine triangles.

[Trehopr1]

Very interesting Papilio indra. Thankyou for sharing !

You sure ordered a bunch of nice material. I can only suggest
that you do your very best to work-up as much as possible
because the true enjoyment lies in the "reveal" of all those
closed wings. With age sometimes the steady hand is -- not
so steady, the eyes not as sharp. And most of all you would'nt
want to see your goods possibly get tossed out or damaged by
pests if anything should happen to you.

Would love to see you post other pics of things which you have !

Also, that's a marvelous avatar of "minori" I believe....

Is it yours ? Have your ever achieved kaibabensis ?

[Panacanthus]

Trehopr1 - thank you very much for the kind words!

Papilio_indra - Thank you for the comments! The old price list was a lot of fun to see! We appreciate you sharing it. I honestly have no idea how Insect World came up with the "decora" part of the name! I cannot say I've seen another called by the "decora" name, but to be honest I don't remember seeing any other "Kirschi" offered. I wonder if the "decora" part could have been added later. It's a bit surprising how cheap this "variation" was on your price list - even though it was over 40 years ago. I know I paid a lot more in the late 90's, but of course there was extra dealer markup. I believe mine was around $200.00 to $250.00 but that didn't seem too bad considering how uncommon they appear(ed) to be, and especially the quality of the specimen.

[Panacanthus]

Of possible interest - on the website of Tony Nagypal, he shows a female of variation "kirschi" which has the yellow coloration but no green scaling. Therefore possibly "kirschi" stands only for the yellow aspect of these variations we have. He also LISTS the form "decora" but there is no image. Perhaps "decora" would stand for the green scaling, hence the name kirschi-decora. These are just thoughts - I am only guessing based on the VERY limited information out there.

Also of interest(and to add confusion!), he shows a couple females with mostly black forewings and some green scaling, mostly in the hindwings. Form names are not given, but they are listed as gynandromorphs. I am no expert, but these just don't seem like gynandromorphs to me. Neither the ones we have, nor the ones he shows.

There is also a photo of a specimen like ours. It is listed as "form kirschi - possible gynandromorph". Again, I have my doubts.

according to his website:

ff. kirschi Oberthur, 1888
ff. decora Niepelt, 1934

Papilio_indra - I realize that you most likely purchased yours simply as kirschi and it has green scaling. This somewhat contradicts my suspicions, but hopefully there is still more information to be found which will clear things up!

kirschif.jpg (372.23 KiB) Viewed 8028 times

65. ORNITHOPTERA PRIAMUS POSEIDON ff KIRSCHI - female
(loc.: Garaina, Morobe Province, 06-JUN-1994)
(wingspan: 170 mm, forewing length: 100 mm)
(coll. and photo: © Ian Davies, Barongarook, Victoria, Australia)

I am not sure if this link will work - the site sems a bit sketchy:

http://www.nagypal.net/ttpriamu.htm

[Papilio_indra]

Thanks Panacanthus for the link and additional info. These female form names are certainly confusing! I agree that there are probably no gynandromorphs here or within our specimens as they are simply too rare to occur naturally in the multiple examples we're seeing. The kirschi examples were offered by IFTA for several years which suggests that they had quite a few of them at one time.

[adamcotton]

This specimen does not fit the description of form kirschi, particularly in the forewings. Here is a translation of the description:

"The forewings of this huge butterfly are almost entirely black, the normal white spots being very reduced. On the contrary, the hindwings are largely invaded along the outer edge by a single large yellowish white confluent spot, sprinkled with blackish scales and in the middle marked with four round black spots."

Adam.

This specimen on the Nagypal website seems to fit the description of form kirschi:

[Trehopr1]

I still believe that this is a case of selective breeding. Perhaps what may have occurred is that one of IFTA's suppliers was able to produce a limited strain of these for a time but, then the strain died out. The supplier likely was paid (extra) for every one he brought in.

I recall hearing a similar story regarding the "golden euphorion" form that was produced by an Australian breeder in the late 1980s or early 1990s. Superficially the butterflies were an overall golden-orange coloration but, at an angle they looked to be a "green" Priamus. The strain was short-lived and I have heard over the years varying numbers of how many were actually achieved but, I believe it was fewer than 70 specimens.

I actually saw two males personally of that form and they were simply extraordinary ! Of course, both of them sold for high prices and I never saw them again.

However, I do have one or two pictures somewhere that I will search for in an effort to post what I encountered so many years ago !

I'm wondering if any of our forum members own any of those golden euphorion that they could show us ?

[Trehopr1]

Another thing I wish to point out is that the yellow of these butterflies is unusually bright and bold; something which tends to occur in hybrid breeding or limited strains.

I once owned one of these myself for a couple of years before another more dedicated birdwing collector (saw it and had to have it). I made a decent trade but, I now find myself regretting it realizing this was something truly unique. I suppose it's still best to see that certain things wind up with the right people who have a greater passion and appreciation for something.

I have seen some Troides hybrids produced and the yellow coloration on them was very intensely bold and unnatural when compared with typical specimens.

[Panacanthus]

Trehopr1 - I totally agree it’s highly possible they were selectively bred. However the strain seems to of lasted almost 20 years if it was selectively bred, based on that price list, and when I purchased mine. My specimen was freshly received by Insect World when I purchased it. Of course perhaps they could repeat this selective breeding. It’s hard to say, and I don’t in any way mean to argue that it’s not a possibility. We must also keep in mind that is seems variation “kirschi” was first described in 1888 by Oberthur, and “decora” in 1934 by Niepelt. It seems unlikely they were selectively bred back then. We may never know for sure, but it’s fun pondering the possibilities!!

Regarding those golden euphorions. I will try and post some photos this evening. I had a pair for a number of years but sold them. I still have photos though. I regret selling them.

[Chuck]

IIRC the golden ornithoptera was a lucky variant, not selective breeding.

I believe IFTA had neither the knowledge or capability to selectively breed. Most, or all, of what they did was ranching. Besides which, as I'd mentioned, variants of Ornithoptera are common; I've had some that were really odd, including one male victoriae for which the ventral green was all monochromatic olive drab. Female victoriae exhibit a vast range of colors and amount of light/dark; urvilleanus not so much.

[Panacanthus]

IIRC the golden ornithoptera was a lucky variant, not selective breeding.

I believe IFTA had neither the knowledge or capability to selectively breed. Most, or all, of what they did was ranching. Besides which, as I'd mentioned, variants of Ornithoptera are common; I've had some that were really odd, including one male victoriae for which the ventral green was all monochromatic olive drab. Female victoriae exhibit a vast range of colors and amount of light/dark; urvilleanus not so much.

That’s how I understand the golden euphorions also. Based on the story I was told, the breeder saw a white (wild) female one day, laying eggs on his plants. He collected those eggs and reared the resulting golden euphorions from them. Then inbreeding those offspring meant that only a very limited number of generations would be produced, and they soon died out. He could have introduced fresh genes but evidently chose not to. That’s the story I heard anyways!