NY Man charged with smuggling birdwings

[wollastoni]

Limiting collecting to 1000 insect in a year is essentially destroying all scientific research henceforth.

Of course, not : entomologists who need a higher number can ask a special permit in French Guiana.
This limit is targetting "commercial collectors" who come to FG to catch and resell Titanus, Dynastes and Theraphosa.
Of course, it adds some useless bureaucracy and it is a threat for all entomological lodges.

Let's add of course that it is just IMPOSSIBLE to threaten an insect species by collecting in French Guiana as paths in the forest represent less than 0.0000001% of the forest itself. Most of the forest is impenetrable to human/collectors.

[Chuck]

https://apnews.com/article/rare-birdwin ... fedb86e75e

Seems Mr Limmer plead guilty at the time this thread was last active. Part of the plea bargain was the loss of his “5,000” specimen collection. I find it hard to believe he had so few specimens.

I do wonder if USFWS takes cabinets too. Those were brutal to get in the house and upstairs. I hate to ask the team at Cornell to move them. Do you think if I bought an Ornithoptera on eBay, USFWS would come and seize my cabinets?

[wollastoni]

You can buy them with CITES on eBay. Just select the serious sellers.

[adamcotton]

I think Chuck's comment about buying an Ornithoptera on eBay and the USFWS coming to seize his cabinets was a 'tongue-in-cheek' sort of joke about getting rid of his cabinets before moving to Florida.

Adam.

[Chuck]

I think Chuck's comment about buying an Ornithoptera on eBay and the USFWS coming to seize his cabinets was a 'tongue-in-cheek' sort of joke about getting rid of his cabinets before moving to Florida.

Adam.

That's correct...still, these cabinets are over 2 meters tall, steel, and a real challenge to get up stairs and around corners. I'd trade a couple pair of Ornithoptera (with certificates) to have someone take them away.

Before someone asks- Ianni used to issue a certificate w/ Ornithoptera that says they were legally imported. I did likewise when I sold Ornithoptera, with the exception that mine also had the import inspection number on them. They're beautiful, but big and eat up space, and I don't want to move them to FL.

I blame Tennent, who told me Ornithoptera were (I forgot, either "stupid" or "rubbish", probably the latter) and common. He suggested Lycaenidae. While I did not go that route, he forever ruined Ornithoptera for me.

[wollastoni]

I have to agree with Tennent. Ornitho are big common lowland species… easy to breed… boring.

[kevinkk]

That's correct...still, these cabinets are over 2 meters tall, steel, and a real challenge to get up stairs and around corners. I'd trade a couple pair of Ornithoptera (with certificates) to have someone take them away.

Couldn't help but be reminded of an instance at a motel I did maimtenance work at. A murder suspect was holed up in a room, the police used
munitions to blast the place to smithereens. The police took the suspect and left, they do not repair your house.
Hopefully the authorithies left Charles a house, rather than dismantle it.

[Chuck]

That's correct...still, these cabinets are over 2 meters tall, steel, and a real challenge to get up stairs and around corners. I'd trade a couple pair of Ornithoptera (with certificates) to have someone take them away.

Couldn't help but be reminded of an instance at a motel I did maimtenance work at. A murder suspect was holed up in a room, the police used
munitions to blast the place to smithereens. The police took the suspect and left, they do not repair your house.
Hopefully the authorithies left Charles a house, rather than dismantle it.

We did a fair amount of wall banging getting these cabinets up the stairs and around the corner. My wife just painted that hallway, I'm afraid of what's going to happen to ME when we get those things out.

Now about "dismantle" yes, that's true- they fix nothing. And of course I have a story about that.

We were about 22 years old and decided to make the 2 hour run to Canada to go collecting for a few hours. My buddy was driving his hopped up 1974 Camaro. At the border they asked what we'd be doing in Canada, and my buddy said "sightseeing" so we got the pink slip to pull over for inspection.

Got out, popped the trunk and doors. A few Canadian border cops come over and start poking around. One pulls out the killing container- a small tupperware with rubbing alcohol, cracks the corner, and starts pulling it up toward his nose. I said "I wouldn't do that if I were you" well he did, his eyes rolled back, and over he went. Now we had LOTS of cops around us. My buddy did remind them that the guy was warned, but it didn't seem to matter.

So yes, when done, the contents of the Camaro- our collecting stuff, spare tire, carpets, anything that could possibly come out was left on the ground for us to put back in place. Which we did, and continued.

That of course couldn't be the end. They later had a car find us and tail us down the country roads. My buddy demonstrated that no Canadian cop car was going to keep up with his Camaro, and we headed for the safety of the border.

[Chuck]

None of these came from Limmer.




I'm cleaning out books now, and pulled out an envelope and couldn't believe what fell out- 1980s vintage retail lists from the old suppliers you probably remember! These were typed on a typewriter, and no photos. I'll have to scan them.

[joopes]

I think Chuck's comment about buying an Ornithoptera on eBay and the USFWS coming to seize his cabinets was a 'tongue-in-cheek' sort of joke about getting rid of his cabinets before moving to Florida.

Adam.

That's correct...still, these cabinets are over 2 meters tall, steel, and a real challenge to get up stairs and around corners. I'd trade a couple pair of Ornithoptera (with certificates) to have someone take them away.

Before someone asks- Ianni used to issue a certificate w/ Ornithoptera that says they were legally imported. I did likewise when I sold Ornithoptera, with the exception that mine also had the import inspection number on them. They're beautiful, but big and eat up space, and I don't want to move them to FL.

I blame Tennent, who told me Ornithoptera were (I forgot, either "stupid" or "rubbish", probably the latter) and common. He suggested Lycaenidae. While I did not go that route, he forever ruined Ornithoptera for me.

What do you plan to do with the specimens if moving them to Florida isn't your wish? (Asking because I've found it very difficult to obtain birdwings in the US).

[Chuck]

What do you plan to do with the specimens if moving them to Florida isn't your wish? (Asking because I've found it very difficult to obtain birdwings in the US).

The heydays of both breeding various forms and ssp of Ornithoptera, as well as the volume retail in USA, is over. At they heyday circa 1990-2000 there were commercial breeding operations all over, and they weren't too expensive at retail from Ianni or Derosa or others. But the market got swamped, the prices dropped, and it wasn't worth breeding them anymore. Plus, Indonesia got greedy and wanted bigger payoffs and narrowed the distributor market to one; everything had to go through Jakarta through one wholesaler. Poof. Trade over. So it is rather amazing that some of the forms and ssp of Priamus, which used to cost $25, are no longer available at all.

Anyway, I'm in discussions with two big and reputable US retailers about their buying the (arguably) not-scientifically-significant specimens, including Ornithoptera. If someone wants to show up at the door with $10,000 it's theirs. The scientifically valuable part of the collection- and perhaps the Ornithoptera too- is going to Cornell.

[mothman55]

I blame Tennent, who told me Ornithoptera were (I forgot, either "stupid" or "rubbish", probably the latter) and common. He suggested Lycaenidae. While I did not go that route, he forever ruined Ornithoptera for me.

I have to agree with Tennent. Ornitho are big common lowland species… easy to breed… boring.

Wow, we have really reached a low point when a beautiful genus such as Ornithoptera is referred to as "rubbish" and "boring". Granted they do take up a lot of space compared to lycaenidae ( a family I love as well), but they are one of our most spectacular groups of butterflies. Would anyone call the beautiful and rare O.alexandrae boring, common, rubbish? How about O. paradisea or chimaera or meridionalis or allottii. Even the more common priamus species are beautiful, especially when you see them flying in the wild. I will never forget the first time I saw priamus euphorion flying about and nectaring freely, a beautiful sight. And the first time I reared them, the sight of a beautiful male drying his wings, exceptional.

So I guess I get a little miffed when I see others dismiss these beautiful creatures as rubbish or boring.

[wollastoni]

mothman55 < Ornithoptera are stunning and marvellous butterflies for sure !
I will remember all my life the first Ornithoptera I saw flying (priamus teucrus) and having such beast in your net is a real thrill. It was one of my goal in life to see them flying in the wild.

Collecting them is a bit boring though, to my mind, as they don't vary much and are easy to find / reared.

[kevinkk]

ollecting them is a bit boring though, to my mind, a

Subjective, and contingent with experience. Everything is amazing the first time. I remember the first Polyphylla decemlineata I caught at a street
light, the greatest thing I'd ever caught. But if it wasn't for people with varied interests, all we'd have for books would be some boring something:)

[Chuck]

Even the more common priamus species are beautiful,
So I guess I get a little miffed when I see others dismiss these beautiful creatures as rubbish or boring.

Of course they are beautiful. And it's impressive to see a dozen female and half dozen pollen-covered males nectaring on one hibiscus plant.

That said, scientifically, they're not so interesting. Virtually all Ornithoptera are lowland (yes, I know not all), and most readily come to ground to nectar in the morning. And while each ssp is often restricted to a single island / chain, they are usually abundant.

I contrast Ornithoptera with Delias. I personally do not care for the colors of Delias, so cosmetically they have never held my interest. But I read everything I can about them, because they are so unique, distinctive in habitat, and offer a great opportunity for new discoveries.

Beauty does not always equate to interesting. From a retail collector's position surely they are beautiful. I find victoriae to be far more beautiful than alexandrae, but that's subjective. On the priamus-types, what I find most interesting is indeed the morphology, but as reflecting divergence- who the $**@ would have ever dreamed up an orange priamus-type? Green, blue, grey, those I understand. But orange? That there is such extreme color variation within the group is astonishing. And makes for a nice display.

[wollastoni]

On the priamus-types, what I find most interesting is indeed the morphology, but as reflecting divergence- who the $**@ would have ever dreamed up an orange priamus-type? Green, blue, grey, those I understand. But orange?

Indeed ! And let's quote A.R. Wallace famous words when he discovered them :
""You may perhaps imagine my excitement when, after seeing it only two or three times in three months, I at length took a male Ornithoptera. When I took it out of my net, and opened its gorgeous wings, I was nearer fainting with delight and excitement than I have ever been in my life; my heart beat violently, and the blood rushed to my head, leaving a headache for the rest of the day. The insect surpassed my expectations, being, though allied to Priamus, perfectly new, distinct, and of a most gorgeous and unique colour; it is a fiery golden orange, changing, when viewed obliquely, to opaline-yellow and green. It is, I think, the finest of the Ornithoptera, and consequently the finest butterfly in the world?”

[adamcotton]

I seem to remember reading that males of O. priamus poseidon are orange immediately on emergence from the pupa, and turn green as the wings dry. Can anyone confirm this?

Adam.

[Chuck]

I seem to remember reading that males of O. priamus poseidon are orange immediately on emergence from the pupa, and turn green as the wings dry. Can anyone confirm this?

Adam.

I have not heard this. I've seen freshly emerged urvilleanus, they are not orange, nor are freshly emerged victoriae.

[bobw]

I had some priamus poseidon and goliath pupae once. They all emerged a bit crippled, but the priamus were green on emergence.

I've also seen priamus once or twice in buttefly houses here in England, although it was many years ago.

[adamcotton]

They all emerged a bit crippled, but the priamus were green on emergence.

Bob and Chuck,

Thanks. I suspect that my memory may have been back to front, and rather than priamus emerging orange and turning green I suspect that O. croesus emerges green and the wings turns orange as they dry.

Adam.