Collecting in California

[mothman55]

I am planning a vacation to Palm Springs in the spring (late Feb - March) and wish to know about any restrictions on collecting. I expect national parks are off limits and I have no interest in collecting the possibly protected monarchs. Are there any restrictions otherwise re butterflies/moths?
I saw a YouTube video from a decade ago where a fellow was collecting the Sonoran blue along the side of a highway. Are there any restrictions related to this particular species now? I am not dedicating a lot of time to collecting on this trip, it's more of a family vacation, just wanted to insure I know the rules when and if I come across any desirable butterflies. Any input is appreciated.

[kevinkk]

I lived in Calif a while back. Avoid parks in general, I was asked to leave a State Park by a ranger before, and they don't refund your fees.
I would guess that monarchs are only protected in Pacific Grove, and possibly any nearby areas. I'd try and look up state restrictions, we have
a few here in Oregon, at least I think so, every year they release an endangered fritillary species nearby, and I'd surmise those are restricted, at
least I wouldn't run around the area with a killing jar.
Good luck with your vacation.

[MikeH]

I'm might not be up to date on the latest info but the pdf linked below is a list of species that can't be taken without a permit and it is not short. But most species other than the monarch are quite local and won't be encountered without effort. So just make sure you can recognize the species/subspecies that may be in the area you are targeting and you'll be fine.

https://nrm.dfg.ca.gov/FileHandler.ashx ... tID=149499

[evra]

That’s a good time for that area, especially if they’ve had good winter rain. Joshua Tree National Park is off-limits and so is Anza-Borrego Desert Park unless you have a permit. BLM and National Forests are open for collecting.

[vabrou]

Thanks for the list. I have saved it under the file folder named California stupidity. Now the entire world has a list of the insects that collectors can zero in on in that corrupt government and failing state. The only reason for collecting in California are for those species on this foolish list. There has never been any proof that any insects have been extirpated by human insect collectors.

The ignorant fools here in my state of Louisiana have placed a saturnid I discovered over 50 years ago on their list. All of this is created by always expanding and corrupt and unnecessary governments. This is why I constantly get calls from state and federal wildlife officials regarding over 400 species of lepidoptera I discovered in Louisiana.
Phone call synopsized : "Why would I provide information to you about any rare or new species. After all my work is done without $$ funds and at my personal expense, but you on the other-hand have employment about these matters and my personal tax monies are paying your salries. Obviously, the fact that you are calling me for information is proof that you are not qualified to hold your position(job). I would be a real dumb-ass to give you any information which you in turn will plagiarize from me"

Jpg Saturnid, attached is a male Automeris louisiana Ferguson and Brou[/size]

[Chuck]

Why would I provide information to you about any rare or new species. After all my work is done without $$ funds and at my personal expense, but you on the other-hand have employment about these matters and my personal tax monies are paying your salries

This aligns perfectly with the past discussion about collecting on private lands and why it's not typically welcomed.

There is a good argument that the sharing of scientific knowledge can actually be detrimental, if not to the landowner, or to science, then to the species. No farmer wants you to find a new/ endangered species on his land.

In some cases when good should come of listing (in whatever form) supposedly rare species it comes to naught. Case in point, Pavulaan's description of new taxa as part of the Hemileuca maia complex in New York and Ontario CA. It was a decade overdue awaiting further study and advances in technology; by the time Pavulaan named these new taxa, and USFWS Endangered Species team finished, several were extirpated, including one I held a personal fondness for.

One would think though that being suddenly ESA would protect the remaining, and potentially unknown, populations/ taxa. In their report, ESA blamed specifically the lake flooding by the International (US/ Canada) Joint Commission Plan 2014 that destroyed thousands of lakeside properties. I immediately flagged Pavulaan's paper, and the ESA report, to the anti-Plan 2014 people as I figured it would immediately put the end to Plan 2014. But I suppose politics wins, because nothing ever happened; these new taxa still face the greatest threat, which is NOT from collectors.

It is a fine line sharing scientific data and knowledge.

[papiliotheona]

There's an updated CA "do not touch" list as of Jan 2024 that adds a couple taxa, takes a couple off. There is nothing in terms of butterflies in the northern Colorado Desert area you describe that is on the CTVPICP list that flies at that time (save of course the monarch). Euphilotes mojave is in the higher areas in late March/early April but is being taken off the list. Hilariously--the opening paragraph of the list even states that the species on it have no legal standing!

As far as places to go, you are a bit earlier than is ideal even for this sunny land. Avoid Joshua Tree NP and ABDSP, of course. Now--here is where it gets tricky. There are a number of BLM and Forest Service national monuments in the area. The way the presidential proclamations are worded, it's often ambiguous as to whether recreational collecting is still allowed, and interpretation is often left to the discretion of each monument manager or field office. That being said, the Santa Rosa and San Jacinto National Monument south of Palm Desert is open to collecting. However--again, it gets tricky. A large part of it is actually checkerboarded with tract parcels of Cal Fish & Wildlife State Ecological Reserve and Wildlife Area property--which do NOT allow collecting. Unless you have an insanely good map, stick with the public Monument visitor center at the bottom of the mountain on 74 (in a good spring, the washes can teem with Dymasia dymas, various metalmarks and orangetips, etc.) and then up at Pinyon Pines at 4000' at the Sawmill/Pigeon Springs trailhead and surrounding hiking trails (there is a large county dump behind the correct parking lot; you can't miss it). However, this pinyon-juniper high desert (can be great for Callophrys loki and Anthocharis desertolimbus; Philotes sonorensis is here too) doesn't come alive until later March at earliest in an average year.

The Colorado Desert of California, for same elevation, is a good three weeks behind the Sonoran Desert (Arizona). SE Arizona, i.e. the Catalinas like Molino Basin at 4500', can be positively hopping even in early March some years, and lower down like "A Mountain" (Sentinel Peak) can be going very well in Feb.

If you are willing to go out further eastward, the Chuckwalla Mountains S of Desert Center at about MM200 of I-10 (take the Corn Springs exit) are a fascinating and unique place. A regular car is good until the Corn Springs campground; after that you should have high-clearance and 4WD. There is a great canyon right at Corn Springs that you can walk down for a very long ways. There is a really neat, transitional population of Anthocharis cethura in this range that is mostly like ssp. pima from Arizona, but contains a few paler individuals.

Indeed, the aforementioned P. sonorensis is not protected so far. Sadly, many of the best places for it in the lower-elevation San Gabriel Mountains got nuked this September in the horrific Bridge Fire that started right in Azusa Canyon where they were the thickest. The burned areas of Angeles National Forest (San Gabriel Mountains National Monument) are strictly off-limits to the public until the end of 2025 even if any did survive.

But... I strongly urge you to push your vacation back to about three weeks later in the year. Almost all the early stuff will still be around, and you will get many more later-eclosing taxa.


PT

[Jshuey]

There's an updated CA "do not touch" list as of Jan 2024 that adds a couple taxa, takes a couple off. .... Hilariously--the opening paragraph of the list even states that the species on it have no legal standing. ...


PT

It's worth noting that this is a list "California Terrestrial and Vernal Pool Invertebrates of Conservation Priority". It's not a list of legally protected species (although it includes a few that are) - but a list of species that would benefit from some conservation protection. You don't have to read beyond the title to understand that (although if you are going to speak about it as if you know what you are talking about - perhaps you should read beyond the title...)

And the list, and the massive underlying data set of where populations of these species are located, is used for conservation planning and in many states, an assessment of the environmental impacts a publicly funded project may have. So, for things like new highways, national forest management plans, BLM management plans - all need to avoid impacting species that are a "conservation priority" to the extent possible.

The idea of having many of these habitat restricted species on here, is to protect them, such that they can survive. And ultimately, you can enjoy them.

John

[papiliotheona]

John,

I think most of us here on Insectnet.com object to the idea of a "protected list" that protects the named entities from absolutely nothing save some seven year-old with a bug jar. It is completely legal for Caltrans to mow and spray rights-of-way with native milkweed, for instance. Obviously I am speaking of the arbitrary state entities on it, not the federal ESA taxa.

Most states have some kind of sensitive species list or watch list (aside from their official ESA), and as far as I know, only CA actually translates that into a "thou shalt not touch" for all the entities.

[Chuck]

John,

I think most of us here on Insectnet.com object to the idea of a "protected list" that protects the named entities from absolutely nothing save some seven year-old with a bug jar. It is completely legal for Caltrans to mow and spray rights-of-way with native milkweed, for instance. Obviously I am speaking of the arbitrary state entities on it, not the federal ESA taxa.

Most states have some kind of sensitive species list or watch list (aside from their official ESA), and as far as I know, only CA actually translates that into a "thou shalt not touch" for all the entities.

I think it's important to note that whatever this list is, a "protected list" or "do not touch" list, it should be referenced by its proper name for others to find.

It's been readily noted by John from his first post on the subject that this list has no legal teeth and that's what's important to people researching this list.

The world is full of stupid politically-induced actions and laws that make no sense in the big scheme. Whether mowing in California or clear-cutting the foodplants of Ornithoptera in Solomon Islands, the big picture is often ignored in favor of little laws. This is the way of The Swamp, because that's how they make money. You cannot change this, not with education, not with fighting back, not with lawsuits- there's too much money and too many incomes at stake. It doesn't hurt to point it out, someone may get educated, you never know.

Case in point: here's a new article that includes both the Swamp people worrying about butterfly collectors, and the holistic thinkers that point out that mining and significant habitat destruction are the real concern: https://www.dw.com/en/n-macedonia-europ ... a-70460098. Notably, those concerned-about-ecological-destruction don't profit from their stance, whereas the Swamp anti-collecting people do. Throw in for good measure the "you're not good enough to collect butterflies" professional entomologist and the article has it all.

Whether this CA list prohibits Little Johnny from catching a butterfly is dubious; his parents use the internet to babysit him and family vacations are all-inclusives where they never leave the resort property. We've analyzed this in detail in the past. The greater threat to the study of entomology (and other sciences) is the dumbing down of America.

So what's important is to support other citizen scientist, such as in this case. If the list is mentioned, simply note that it's not law and means nothing; no need to go on ad nauseum. Sometimes the important message can be lost in the weeds.

[kevinkk]

habitat destruction are the real concern:

The Speyeria sp. they release each year at Cascade Head here in Lincoln co. OR, are in this category, collecting is not an issue, it's habitat destruction caused by uninformed entities or over zealous officials worried about bringing civilization to the woods.
These topics are always interesting, I've never seen another person with a butterfly net in the field in my 50 years of swinging one, save for the
other collectors I rode with in the car. Simple common sense will go a long ways most of the time.
This summer, we spent the night at a private campground, as we pull in, there is a butterfly bush covered in Speyeria cybele, I hope I got
that right from memory- well, this is basically somebodies back yard, and not only am I not going to walk over and swoop up butterflies, I'm
not even going to ask. Maybe I could have, but one has to look at it from another perspective, in that while "just" insects, people still like seeing them.
Avoid others and you'll probably be ok. I took my chances running the UV light and called it good.

[papiliotheona]

Chuck,

I did use its proper name; scroll up; I referenced the CTVPICP list (California Terrestrial & Vernal Pool Invertebrates of Conservation Priority) List. Yes, everything you say is true. It's hilarious. As for the endangered Macedonian grayling--I will go with the opinion of the local Macedonian expert over the German politician-scientist ten times out of ten.

The laws must be obeyed, even if they are foolish, but it's (for now) not a crime to point the latter out.

[MikeH]

It's worth noting that this is a list "California Terrestrial and Vernal Pool Invertebrates of Conservation Priority". It's not a list of legally protected species (although it includes a few that are) - but a list of species that would benefit from some conservation protection. You don't have to read beyond the title to understand that (although if you are going to speak about it as if you know what you are talking about - perhaps you should read beyond the title...)

While I agree with the sentiment on these kinds of lists in most states, in California it seems to have more teeth and are protected by the state.

From California department of fish and wildlife:
In accordance with regulations adopted by CDFW in Title 14 of the
California Code of Regulations (CCR). Section 650(a), Title 14, CCR states: “Except as
otherwise authorized by the Fish and Game Code or regulations adopted pursuant thereto, it
shall be unlawful for any person or entity to take and/or possess live or dead wildlife, or parts
thereof in any part of the State of California, for scientific, educational, and/or propagation
purposes except as authorized by a permit issued by the department [of fish and wildlife].” For
purposes of SCPs, “take” is defined to include hunt, pursue, catch, capture, handle, kill, collect,
mark or conduct other procedures, or attempt to conduct these activities.

The "California Terrestrial and Vernal Pool Invertebrates of Conservation Priority" list is specifically mentioned in section 650.

[Chuck]

Thanks MikeH. Now that's some real research.

Hmmm...note the word "possess." This means pre-act (pre-law) specimens are illegal. This would apply to the listed species for which the specimen was captured outside of Kalifornia as well.

[Jshuey]

MikeH - you may well be on the mark for California. Here in Indiana, we have very similar rules, but the protection hinges on the definition of "wildlife" which as defined in Indiana statute, excludes all invertebrates except for crawfish and mussels. Basically wildlife equals those two groups plus all vertebrates here.

Our DNR says that they have no authority over any insect - even those that are federally protected!

j

[Chuck]

One take-away is that it's challenging to figure out what's legal, and what's not. It's often buried. You can't even rely on the codified laws like MikeH posted, because some laws are created by publishing in the National Register, but never codified so you can find them. Then you have agencies coming up with their own rulings thereby making de facto law w/o congressional approval, a situation that got some government agencies the slap-down by SCOTUS recently. Scary world of messy bureaucracy.

[evra]

I’ve done quite a bit of collecting in S. CA and I’ve never been hassled by law enforcement at all, let alone for collecting anything “endangered”. I don’t really even think about it, but I also don’t target anything really rare or localized.