What's up with US Saturniidae?

[lamprima2]

Once in a while, I purchase a few cocoons of very trivial overwintering N. American Saturniidae: H. cecropia. and A. polyphemus, just for fun. This year I can not find any. I really do not feel like importing them from UK or France. Did something happen to these species in the US, or this is just a "supply-demand" thing - a common explanation of all possible problems nowadays? Can anyone tell me the name of a reliable breeder in the US?

[kevinkk]

I don't think any problems exist, each year is different, people don't always advertise livestock. Some times you need to post a want
ad, and even then it's a crapshoot. I've found that over the last ten years or so, a large variety of natives have been offered, it's just that
life isn't a production line, and sometimes there's a period where you have to wait for ova, rather than being able to buy diapaused material.
I'll be out this season, and something will fly in, what, where and when -
I keep a notebook of traders and just recently bought material from someone I emailed and asked if they had anything, a successful endeavor,
despite my want ads. Shipping is work, I know I don't come out ahead when I sell livestock, I suppose that's my own fault, but it's just a hobby.
I sure wouldn't import US natives from the EU, if you're desperate- try Ebay.

[Chuck]

Bill O in Canada is the clearing house, though he's older now and I've not seen anything from him in the past year. He doesn't do much raising on his own anymore but has pupae drop shipped. So he has a supplier network, they're out there. But I don't buy pupae, so don't know the players, sorry.

[eurytides]

I was in contact will Bill last year. He seemed as active as ever. He has a supplier network in Canada and the USA but doesn’t ship across the border for obvious reasons. Give him a shout. I have a bunch of cecropia and promethea cocoons in the garage but I believe you are in the US?

[lamprima2]

Thank you all. 
Yes, I am in US. I'll try eBay. 
Bill O. has a limited stock this season. 

[kevinkk]

Well, when you see what livestock sells for on Ebay, you'll see why I used the word "desperate" . That is a bunch I'd call unethical. But that's just
my opinion.

[lamprima2]

Well, when you see what livestock sells for on Ebay, you'll see why I used the word "desperate" . That is a bunch I'd call unethical. But that's just
my opinion.

Kevin,
I was unable to find anything except "empty cocoons, no live moth" on eBay.
Actually, I am not desperate: I acquired a few cocoons/chrysalids of rare and interesting
species through Insectenet "Classifieds" and reared a couple of common (still quite interesting) species by myself.
I just can not understand, why the cocoons of the most trivial species are not available this season.

[jellybean]

Perhaps one reason is eBay's listing policy which only allows the following live insects to be listed:
Fertilized eggs and Non CITES bees, crickets, and ladybugs. This is per https://www.ebay.com/help/policies/proh ... cy?id=4327

[kevinkk]

Ebay policy also says that live insects can only be sold as feeders, I sell livestock there all the time and don't rip people off charging 40 bucks for 1
cecropia, sans shipping.
You might try Carolina biological, although they may limit species depending on where you live.
Yes, I looked at Ebay last nite, and it was just empty cocoons, but, often there is living material, and, at times, I've found things worth buying, not
often because it's too expensive, I do like looking though.
And that listing policy- Not even Ebay follows it, they wait for people to make complaints about items, the first time I bought Argema mitteri was on
Ebay from Italy, I've found Hyles lineata there. Making complaints isn't easy either, I've made complaints multiple times about a seller and their
racist items, it took 2 years to get rid of that seller.
I sold my livestock a bit early this year, we raised Hyalophora euryalus from a wild female, and I think that was it, every year is different though.
You need to be on top of things during the seasons- I look at the classifieds every morning drinking coffee, things can disappear in a matter of hours.
Sometimes it takes knowing the "right" people, I've been lucky enough with networking. While we're on the subject of selling, I have some comments-
I keep a notebook, if you're one of those persons with "issues", it gets written down, in case aliens suck out part of my brain and I forget it takes
you 2 weeks to return email, or you take off for the weekend and don't ship my Citheronia regalis ova until you come back on Monday and they've
all hatched in the mail- and you know who you are. It is just a hobby, until you take my money-

[vabrou]

why don't you collect your own. Here is a jpg illustrating some of the good quality saturnids and sphingidae I captured on a single night with a single trap. I have been collecting this way for the past 54 years using 500+ automatic-capture insect traps 365-366 days every year since 1969. You will note the 6 rows of regal moths in the image.
----- Vernon Antoine Brou Jr.

Aug. 1980, Weyanoke, La.jpg (307.54 KiB) Viewed 12121 times

[Chuck]

why don't you collect your own. Here is a jpg illustrating some of the good quality saturnids and sphingidae I captured on a single night with a single trap. I have been collecting this way for the past 54 years using 500+ automatic-capture insect traps 365-366 days every year since 1969. You will note the 6 rows of regal moths in the image.
----- Vernon Antoine Brou Jr.

Aug. 1980, Weyanoke, La.jpg

That looks great Vernon- problem is, that usually exceeds a full summer's catch up north. And, at least up here in the industrial/ agricultural region, Saturnid populations have crashed.

[vabrou]

Chuck, the reason why insect populations have dwindled throughout the world are the hundreds of billions of high-wattage MV lights along highways and roads which began 200 years ago. Then the useless massive facade lighting on buildings everywhere, hundreds of millions of MV 175 watt yard lights just here in the US. Don't forget these are all 24 hours automatic feeding stations for billions of bats birds spiders crawfish lizards frogs toads snakes racoons opossums fish foxes bobcats dogs cats and a whole lot of larger animals, e.g. bears, on and on and on. I'm surprised that we still have any insects at all. Then we also have been aerial spraying poisons over forest and crops and our yards for a century. lets not forget massive habitat destruction throughout the world along with 8 billion too many people on this planet.

Here is a jpg illustrating a small portion of the sphingids, underwings etc taken on one night with one trap, only good quality specimens shown.

If one wants to collect, one needs to get away from existing light pollution and collect in forested areas. 54 years ago I took up residence in a rural location so I could more easily collect at my home locations.
It has been a remarkable journey of discovering more than 400 moth species new to science. Imagine I discovered two new hawkmoth species here in my yard, a new saturnid and 12 new underwing species to mention a few.

[Chuck]

I'm now over 20 years lighting at one location and 2024 is the worst. Not because of weather, that's actually been good compared to the past two years. But the Sphingids and Saturnids have crashed to near nothing.

Once common species have virtually disappeared:

luna: 3 this entire year, I used to get 5-6/ night.

promethea: replaced by angulifera / hybrid starting 10 years ago, haven't seen one in years; used to get 20-30 males/ night.

angulifera: one last night, a female, that's it. 5+ years ago it would be 4-5 / night.

polyphemus: 3 so far all year. Used to be 5+/ night.

io: 1 so far. I'd typically get 5-10/year.

Sphinxes are gone almost.

Darapsa: maybe 5 this year; typically 10/night.

abbotti: 0 this year; typically 2-3/night. Last year though they were here.

nessus: 0 this year; I've seen a couple nectaring during the day though. Typically 2-3/night.

The rest of the Sphingidae- nothing.

I run either MV or BLB, depending on the weather. I wonder if MV bulbs wear out?

I still get a lot of Arctiinae and Catocala, those don't seem to have changed. So what's with the Saturnidae and Sphingidae? On a good, warm night I used to sit out by the light with my net because I'd be busy; now, I sit inside and watch for shadows against the sheet. In the morning I beat the bluejays before sunup and nothing...lots of little stuff but none of the larger moths.

[alandmor]

Wow, very discouraging no to mention distressing. I know some parasitoids released for gypsy moth control (now known as spongy moth) have negatively impacted saturnid populations in the NE. This and aerial spraying for gypsy moth control (which I hear are bad this year in the NE) perhaps are both factors.

[Trehopr1]

Here is the primary culprit responsible for the
wholesale demise of saturniid moths in the NE
states.



Of coarse, as alandmor pointed out its also periodic
aerial pesticide sprayings which also contribute to
the overall loss.

The 1861 (introduced) Ailanthus silkmoth (Samia cynthia)
is now very much "restricted" to a few select areas of New
Jersey which are now largely neglected and forgotten
ramparts by the greater population of people. There was
a time when the species range expanded quite a bit from its
original introduction in Philadelphia PA. In 1881, two decades
after the introduction of S. cynthia, their caterpillars were
seen on almost all trees in New York City's central park.

It expanded to CT, MA, MD, DE, and Wash DC to the best
of my knowledge. It is extinct now in Philadelphia where
it was first introduced. It may possibly have a "toe-hold"
presence --- albeit spotty if it exists at all in any of the
above mentioned states.

I believe this fly's range has expanded over the decades to
now include a greater section of the eastern seaboard hence,
more devastation to our Midwest numbers.

It's gotten REALLY tough these last 15-20 years to find any
"wild" cocoons of native silk moths.

[livingplanet3]

The effect that Compsilura concinnata has had on US saturniids has undoubtedly been devastating. It's surely a major reason behind the decline of Hyalophora cecropia in many parts of the east, along with other giant silk moth species. The introduction of biological control agents has far too often led to ecological disasters. One of the best known examples is the release of cane toads in Australia in 1935, in the misguided hope of controlling sugarcane beetles (Dermolepida albohirtum). The small Asian mongoose was brought to Hawaii in the late 1880s in the hope of controlling rats (another pest of sugarcane). The mongoose was more interested in eating the native birds, and sea turtle eggs.

[kevinkk]

Great analogy video. Like I've mentioned before, there's a Simpson episode for everything. It's a great clip.
I wonder if that fly made it over the mountains, I recall seeing the gray egg masses everywhere back in the 70's,
tent caterpillars as well, not very common now. Seems like I bought wild collected Papilio pupa from the east that had very similar
looking flies emerge rather than the butterflies.
Amazed a few years back when I first saw dispar being offered at Actias, the larva are colorful-

[vabrou]

Chuck, Trehopr1 also is noting a major fly offender, but billions of mercury vapor and similar lights over two centuries are the real blame. The early entomologists documented what happened in Brazil when the electric street lights made their first appearance stating that the moths at the lamps were 7 layers deep. And today it is not just street lights but lights seen from indoors through windows, and covering virtually every structure (facade lighting) in cities and rural areas, farms and woodlands and along hundreds of millions of miles of highways and even on gravel and mud roads. Then the hundreds of thousands of malls and gasoline stations over the past century.

[adamcotton]

If that is correct, over the long term moth numbers should gradually recover as light sources are modernised to be less attractive to insects in general.

I suspect that both the introduced parasitoid and light pollution are only two of a myriad of different factors causing decline in population numbers.

Adam.

[Chuck]

billions of mercury vapor and similar lights over two centuries... lights seen from indoors through windows, ... hundreds of thousands of malls and gasoline stations

We know that some moths are not much attracted to MV; cecropia for example is more likely to be found at incandescent and metal halide. But for the most part, Saturnids and Sphingids are more likely to come to MV.

That said, they of course do come to porch lights and windows, including to LED. I suppose with enough local home lights it could reduce the quantity coming to my MV.

Still, with MV being by far the most attracting, our area converted to MH some 30 years ago. This was a pain, as the number of gas stations and such worth checking in the morning dropped and dropped until it hit zero. Now with commercial lighting (eg malls, gas stations, auto dealers) converted or converting to LED, I've not seen an increase in the moths flying around lights at night.

In our area, there has been an increase in both commercial lighting and new homes (LED, mostly) though there's a minimum .75km of thick deciduous forest between my MV and these places.

There may be a correlation between being attracted to lights and where the moths lay eggs. I don't know, but I'd not be surprised. If that were the case, one would think I'd still find promethea and cecropia cocoons in the back yard, but I do not.

If the new MH and LED lights in the area impacted all moths equally, and were the cause of loss at my MV, I'd expect to also see a marked drop in Catocala and Arctids, but I do not, those quantities at my MV are unchanged.

So while I have no doubt that an increase in regional lighting does have some impact on Saturnid populations, I doubt it's in the top three factors for the populations decreases.