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Topic: New paper on P. machaon | Author: adamcotton | Replies: 4 | Views: 52
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Re: New paper on P. machaon

by adamcotton » Tue Feb 18, 2025 6:16 pm

Chuck wrote: Tue Feb 18, 2025 1:48 pm “ Finally, P. canadensis, P. glaucus, and P. appalachiensis have identical barcodes (BOLD:AAA6909)”
Note that this is citing Kunte et al. (2011).

I agree this is questionable, and it points towards the progress made in studying the glaucus group since 2011, as well as the limitations of COI and of mt-DNA as a whole. It is quite likely that one or more of these are misidentified, in the light of recent publications. My guess would be the middle one. Personally, I encourage my collaborators not to use older (often difficult to confirm ID) sequences from online sources unless the sample ID can be completely confirmed.

Adam.
Topic: What has changed recently with importing? | Author: daffodildeb | Replies: 19 | Views: 11674
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Re: What has changed recently with importing?

by kevinkk » Tue Feb 18, 2025 4:55 pm

Every time I read these posts, I am reminded why I don't bother. I'd like some beetle species, but I don't think it's worth the trouble, but that's my opinion. The issues are why things are expensive, and it doesn't matter if you're eating the dead bugs, what you're doing with them doesn't matter, and
from what I have seen, the market is flooded with insect items of all kinds, if you want cheap bugs, catch them yourself. (In your back yard, because
it's expensive out in the field.) I have no more sympathy for a reseller, an artist, or a fellow collector, there are no extenuating circumstances.
Go to the trouble of importing and mucking it up with the feds, charge what you want.
Topic: New paper on P. machaon | Author: adamcotton | Replies: 4 | Views: 52
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Re: New paper on P. machaon

by Chuck » Tue Feb 18, 2025 1:48 pm

“ Finally, P. canadensis, P. glaucus, and P. appalachiensis have identical barcodes (BOLD:AAA6909)”

I’m on my phone without my data, but I question this. The BOLD number does not look correct for canadensis. Surely, the 5’ COI for canadensis and glaucus are not identical. I’ll have to investigate the discrepancy unless someone else is so inclined.
Topic: New paper on P. machaon | Author: adamcotton | Replies: 4 | Views: 52
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Re: New paper on P. machaon

by adamcotton » Tue Feb 18, 2025 12:55 pm

Importantly, this paper shows that the NW African taxon mauretanica Verity, 1905 belongs to Papilio saharae Oberthür, 1879, and Papilio machaon Linnaeus, 1758 does not occur in NW Africa.

Also the taxon neosaharae Tarrier, 2015 is genetically identical to Papilio saharae saharae and as a result is synonymised.

Adam.
Topic: New paper on P. machaon | Author: adamcotton | Replies: 4 | Views: 52
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New paper on P. machaon

by adamcotton » Tue Feb 18, 2025 12:47 pm

Online version just published:

Louis-F. Cassar, Benoit Nabholz, Eliette L. Reboud, Emmanuelle Chevalier, Bérénice J. Lafon, Adam M. Cotton, Fabien L. Condamine 2025. Whole-genome data shed light on speciation and within-species differentiation of the Papilio machaon complex around the Mediterranean Basin. Systematic entomology, DOI: 10.1111/syen.12675, 1-21.

Open access from https://resjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley ... syen.12675

Abstract
Within swallowtail butterflies, the type species Papilio machaon Linnaeus has fostered many studies leading to a complex taxonomy. With >40 subspecies formally recognized in the Palaearctic and recently simplified to 14 subspecies, there is still a need to address the taxonomic delineation within this complex. A previous phylogenomic analysis including Holarctic subspecies has revealed that Palaearctic P. machaon formed several monophyletic groups, leading to treat P. saharae Oberthür as a subspecies and the Nearctic P. machaon as a separate species (P. bairdii Edwards). Here, we aim at testing the taxonomic boundaries and relationships in the Western Palaearctic using whole-genome data of taxa from the Mediterranean region, which include first draft genomes of P. hospiton Géné (41× coverage depth) and P. saharae (51× coverage depth). We refined the species boundary of P. machaon and confirmed the species status of P. saharae. We assessed subspecies limits of Mediterranean P. machaon and P. saharae through Bayesian multi-species coalescent inferences and population genomic analyses, indicating that a taxonomic simplification is needed, with the exclusion of P. machaon from North Africa (P. saharae mauretanica Verity, comb. nov.) and the synonymy of subspecies (P. saharae neosaharae Tarrier, syn. nov.). We revealed heterogeneous levels of heterozygosity between island and continental lineages that warrant further taxonomic actions. We also found evidence of low gene flow between Corsican P. machaon and P. hospiton, endemic to Corsica (and Sardinia). We discuss how the speciation and phylogeographic patterns are in line with past climatic and geological changes of the Mediterranean Basin.
Topic: New Papilio described today | Author: adamcotton | Replies: 27 | Views: 406
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Re: New Papilio described today

by JVCalhoun » Tue Feb 18, 2025 4:17 am

Another excellent example of the artistic license applied to old, hand-colored illustrations is the amount of variation in Plate 23 of Drury (1773) (below). The original drawing by Moses Harris is at upper left (Fig. 9). This plate accompanied the original description of Papilio rhipheus (=Chrysiridia rhipheus) when this moth was thought to be a butterfly. The ventral figure was probably based on a sketch of a worn specimen which lacked the lower portions of its hindwings. The inaccurate dorsal figure may have been based on a written description, or it was simply extrapolated from the ventral sketch.

The coloration of the dorsal hindwings of the copy shown in Fig. 12 really deviates from the others, and was clearly based on the ventral coloration. Strangely enough, that copy of the plate was possibly colored by the original artist, Moses Harris, who likely colored the copy in Fig. 10. There is very little consistency between copies.
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... _1770-1782

John

download/file.php?mode=view&id=4156
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Topic: New Papilio described today | Author: adamcotton | Replies: 27 | Views: 406
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Re: New Papilio described today

by JVCalhoun » Tue Feb 18, 2025 3:40 am

Chuck wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2025 8:24 pm BTW there is a Smyrna NY, and Jamaica N.Y. is now part of queens.
Regarding the reference to "Smyrna" in Cramer's description of P. hyllus, at least eight municipalities are named Smyrna in the United States, but they were either founded during the nineteenth century (including Smyrna, NY, which was founded in 1808), and/or are located outside the range of this species. Cramer placed a number of species in "Smyrna," most of which are not North American. It is well established that many of Cramer’s localities are erroneous.

Locality labels were rarely affixed to specimens during the eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries. Cabinet labels (pinned at the head or foot of a series of specimens) were used for identification purposes, but locality data were often recorded in separate catalogs or log books. If the specimens were later sold or exchanged, locality information was frequently lost or imprecisely conveyed. The illustrated type specimen of Papilio hyllus likely passed through the hands of at least four people during its existence, thus its type locality cannot be trusted. After tracing the likely provenance of the specimen, I concluded that it was collected during the 1760s in the vicinity of Brooklyn, Long Island, NY. Hence my selection of a neotype specimen from that locality.

John
Topic: New Papilio described today | Author: adamcotton | Replies: 27 | Views: 406
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Re: New Papilio described today

by JVCalhoun » Tue Feb 18, 2025 3:23 am

Chuck wrote: Tue Feb 18, 2025 12:58 am I do note that the illustrated specimen with that wash of yellow/ brown underside and yellow FW spots is far more common in Philly and the hills of KY now.
It must be kept in mind that old, hand-colored engravings (like those of Clerck) are not photographs. They can differ quite a bit between copies, and they often exaggerate features depending on the degree of artistic license applied during the coloring process. This is a bigger problem when plates were colored by multiple colorists during the production of these old books. A good example is the ventral figure of Oreas helicta (=Neonympha areolatus) from plate 95 of Hübner (1806-[1838]). The images below, from my 2018 paper on this taxon, show how much variation there is between copies.

Even though Clerck probably colored his own plates, I wouldn't put too much weight in the extent of yellow overscaling on the ventral hindwings of the glaucus figures, as he may have overemphasized this feature. Although my dark females from Ohio have varying amounts of this overscaling, it's not nearly as vivid as shown in Clerck's illustration. As for the yellow forewing discal scaling (which is mentioned in Linnaeus' original description of glaucus), it is irregularly present among the dark females I have from Ohio, as well as ssp. maynardi from Florida.

John

download/file.php?mode=view&id=4155&sid ... d02021af5e
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Topic: What has changed recently with importing? | Author: daffodildeb | Replies: 19 | Views: 11674
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Re: What has changed recently with importing?

by x106x » Tue Feb 18, 2025 3:12 am

I have a eDoc that's been pending for well over a month. The dropdown list is super annoying- you you put something generic like "non-cites butterflies" and then try to actually list the genus or common name or anything, it automatically removes the tag and it says that not having the code will delay the shipment. Which do they want? Generic code or the specific name without the code?

Also, how do you provide them (courier or customs) those documents? Ask the shipper to send pictures of the package before they send it and then email all those to them? Oh! And I had to "authorize a request for overtime processing and payment of overtime fees." Since it was coming into the Port of New York. The hell?

I'm an artist, not a reseller, but being able to import the popular bugs I use frequently would allow me to keep my prices reasonable (and we all need *something* reasonably priced right about now...amirite?) Any commissions or one offs I just purchase from US resellers.

jen
Topic: New Papilio described today | Author: adamcotton | Replies: 27 | Views: 406
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Re: New Papilio described today

by Chuck » Tue Feb 18, 2025 12:58 am

This could work for glaucus, as neither canadensis nor solstitius are known to have dark forms (though appalachiensis rarely does).

objective of any potential neotype designation would be to choose specimens that are definitely the same as currently recognised as P. glaucus



Clark and Clark reported several different flights in the DC area, including on that could have been solstitius, and another small form flight with a dark female. Given that the illustration shows a dark female, it’s not solstitius. But we know ranges have changed, so are we certain that the collected specimen from which the illustration is made is truly glaucus? Was there another polymorph in the DC area that is now, like so many others, extinct? Without the type specimen it cannot be disproven.

I do note that the illustrated specimen with that wash of yellow/ brown underside and yellow FW spots is far more common in Philly and the hills of KY now.
Topic: Packing for a trip | Author: Chuck | Replies: 7 | Views: 145
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Re: Packing for a trip

by Chuck » Tue Feb 18, 2025 12:41 am

We did find a great home. Wife loves it, and it backs to forever wild for MV lamps. Problem is it’s just a bit over budget.
Topic: New Papilio described today | Author: adamcotton | Replies: 27 | Views: 406
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Re: New Papilio described today

by Chuck » Mon Feb 17, 2025 8:24 pm

BTW there is a Smyrna NY, and Jamaica N.Y. is now part of queens.
Topic: New Papilio described today | Author: adamcotton | Replies: 27 | Views: 406
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Re: New Papilio described today

by JVCalhoun » Mon Feb 17, 2025 5:55 pm

Adam is correct. Article 75.3.5 of the Code states, in part, that the neotype must be “consistent with what is known of the former name-bearing type from the original description and from other sources.” In addition, it must have originated “as nearly as practicable from the original type locality…” (Art. 75.3.6). Neotypes are designated only when it is necessary to define a nominal taxon objectively, such as to fix the identities of closely related taxa.

Neotype specimens for names proposed many years ago can be of more recent origin. For example, Papilio hyllus (now recognized as Tharsalea hyllus) was described and figure by Cramer in 1775 (top image, below), but I was unable to locate any extant syntypes. I designated a neotype using a specimen that was collected in 1900 (bottom image, below). The type locality was reported by Cramer to be “Smirna” or “Smirne,” implying Smyrna (now Ismir) in western Turkey, which is obviously incorrect. The specimen I chose was from Brooklyn, New York, which is the area where the syntype(s) likely originated based on available evidence.

John
download/file.php?mode=view&id=4153

download/file.php?mode=view&id=4151
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Topic: New Papilio described today | Author: adamcotton | Replies: 27 | Views: 406
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Re: New Papilio described today

by adamcotton » Mon Feb 17, 2025 3:45 pm

JVCalhoun wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2025 2:02 pm In this case, one could designate the specimen in Clerck's illustration of glaucus as the lectotype, arguing that it is likely a syntype.
Indeed, designating the specimen in Clerck's illustration as lectotype of P. glaucus is a possibility. However, Clerck's illustration, on plate 24, was only published in 1764, 6 years after Linnaeus published the name, and in order to be regarded as a syntype the specimen in the Clerck illustration would have to be assumed as present in the M.L.U. collection before 1758. Clerck's illustrations were made from the collection of Drottning (= Queen) Louisa Ulrica which is the same as the 'M.L.U.' cited by Linnaeus in 1758, so that does at least link the Clerck specimen to Linnaeus' description on the basis of housing.

Adam.
Topic: What has changed recently with importing? | Author: daffodildeb | Replies: 19 | Views: 11674
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Re: What has changed recently with importing?

by lepman1256 » Mon Feb 17, 2025 3:23 pm

USFW does give you hoops to jump through, but they are spelled out in your application for a import/export permit. Before a shipment hits the U.S. you need to notify the courier (FedEx or DHL) of its arrival. send them picks of documents such as declaration form, waybill number, box pic, health certificate, invoice, and possible others. Most inspections get done at or near their hubs. If you list the wrong one, a USFW representative will get back to you to change it on your Edoc (declaration form) and resubmit. I think what might slow down the clearing of a shipment is when the exact species is not listed on their dropdown list, so you have to go with a (genus name ?). Makes the officer have to check out the species as per your provided invoice. Bonding is done, with a small fee added to your custom fees. If all is done correctly, most shipments clear within 3-4 days.
Topic: New Papilio described today | Author: adamcotton | Replies: 27 | Views: 406
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Re: New Papilio described today

by adamcotton » Mon Feb 17, 2025 3:09 pm

Chuck wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2025 1:14 pm The risk of a neotype is that it could be a different taxon.
I will add that the objective of any potential neotype designation would be to choose specimens that are definitely the same as currently recognised as P. glaucus and ensure that the chosen specimens do not belong to any of the other named taxa currently recognised.

Note that a neotype can be a modern specimen, but it must be housed in an institution named in the publication or be placed in the specified institution on publication (paraphrased from article 75.3.7).

Adam.
Topic: New Papilio described today | Author: adamcotton | Replies: 27 | Views: 406
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Re: New Papilio described today

by JVCalhoun » Mon Feb 17, 2025 2:02 pm

Chuck wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2025 1:14 pm The risk of a neotype is that it could be a different taxon.
That is a risk, especially for closely-related taxa. In this case, one could designate the specimen in Clerck's illustration of glaucus as the lectotype, arguing that it is likely a syntype. Article 74.4 of the Code states "Designation of an illustration or description of a syntype as a lectotype is to be treated as designation of the specimen illustrated or described; the fact that the specimen no longer exists or cannot be traced does not of itself invalidate the designation."

This could work for glaucus, as neither canadensis nor solstitius are known to have dark forms (though appalachiensis rarely does). The illustration matches Linnaeus' (brief) description, and it seems to be clearly identifiable to species. The only drawbacks are that you don't have any metrics on the missing specimen, you can't sample genetic material from it, and it's geographical origin is uncertain.

John
Topic: New Papilio described today | Author: adamcotton | Replies: 27 | Views: 406
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Re: New Papilio described today

by Chuck » Mon Feb 17, 2025 1:14 pm

The original type specimen is, by default, THE species it is named to be, so long as it doesn’t turn out to be synonymous

The risk of a neotype is that it could be a different taxon.

For the draft of solstitius I’d picked a very nice, expressive specimen typical of the species. My Canadian colleagues replaced it with a Canadian specimen, correctly arguing it had less risk of being hybrid or a look-alike stray glaucus.
Topic: New Papilio described today | Author: adamcotton | Replies: 27 | Views: 406
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Re: New Papilio described today

by JVCalhoun » Mon Feb 17, 2025 3:21 am

Unfortunately, there are numerous historical specimens, including types, missing for various reasons. This contributes to the need for neotypes. In the case of glaucus, Linnaeus did not personally collect the the specimen(s) from which he based his description of the species. In his original description, Linnaeus (1758) cited at least one specimen in "M.L.U.," which refers to Museum Ludovicae Ulricae (Queen Ludovica Ulrika's collection). Carl Clerck is believed to have illustrated one such specimen in the second part of his his Icones Insectorum Rariorum (1764). This illustration is shown below.

Linnaeus (1764) later attributed specimen(s) of glaucus to the Swedish naturalist Peter (Pehr) Kalm, one of Linnaeus' first students who traveled in North America from 1748 to 1751. The fate of the specimen(s) that Linnaeus used for his description is unknown. Honey and Scoble (2001) could not locate any type material.

download/file.php?mode=view&id=4149
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Topic: New Papilio described today | Author: adamcotton | Replies: 27 | Views: 406
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Re: New Papilio described today

by Chuck » Sun Feb 16, 2025 11:30 pm

So after 250 years, there’s question about where they types of bloody Tiger Swallowtails, captured by the most famed lepidopterist, are and if they exist? I’ve misplaced stuff before, but if they exist I’d think someone would know about it. To expect someone to put in effort to locate them is beyond rediculous. They can’t even find the Holy Grail. And even if they found one it would turn into a case of Longines’ spear.