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Re: Papilio machaon from Sichuan, Identification please.
by teinopalpus » Tue Dec 03, 2024 8:30 am
I have series from same locality ( unprepared for now ) and there are visible also some variability for some keymark ( especially prominency of black margin under red anal eye ). Also they are definitly more yellowish than pale yellow that archias should be, but that can be due to specimens are not fresh.
Also added one specimen from locality more western ( where archias should be present ), but I think it is not everesti alpherakyi as I have those and they are significantly smaller with smaller tails and also with darker markings.
Jan
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Re: A malformed specimen of Papilio agenor ♀ farmed in Xishuangbanna
by Leonard187 » Mon Dec 02, 2024 11:53 pm
Though it was not caught by me, the owner has used it breeding to produce more offsprings. I am waiting for seeing more white specimens ^0^adamcotton wrote: ↑Mon Dec 02, 2024 7:19 pm That is a superb specimen, especially for a wild caught female. It should be used for breeding to produce even more white specimens than this.
I did occasionally find specimens with a reduced red triangle at the base of the forewing.
Adam.
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Re: California Insect Barcoding Initiative
by Chuck » Mon Dec 02, 2024 9:53 pm
That is so cool. Often in French Polynesia I'd note the many different beautifully colored darter (or blenny?) fishes and think that I'll bet some were undescribed. As it turned out, I was right.
Are you stuck with only Tahiti? Not Morea or anywhere else in the country? You should try Tonga's Niuatoputapu, no entomologist has ever been there. I was supposed to go, but bailed out at the last minute and stayed in Tongatapu; good thing too, the two day visit for my friends turned out to be six weeks.
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Re: California Insect Barcoding Initiative
by bbalukjian » Mon Dec 02, 2024 8:08 pm
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Re: A malformed specimen of Papilio agenor ♀ farmed in Xishuangbanna
by adamcotton » Mon Dec 02, 2024 7:19 pm
I did occasionally find specimens with a reduced red triangle at the base of the forewing.
Adam.
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Re: California Insect Barcoding Initiative
by Chuck » Mon Dec 02, 2024 7:06 pm
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California Insect Barcoding Initiative
by bbalukjian » Mon Dec 02, 2024 6:57 pm
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Re: Papilio memnon ssp. ♂
by adamcotton » Mon Dec 02, 2024 6:27 pm
The white triangle theoretically evolved to mimic Atrophaneura hageni.Leonard187 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 02, 2024 4:20 pm I found that many female individuals of ssp. anceus on Sumatra have white triangles on the base of forewings instead of red ones
Yes, it is believed that some forms of ssp. memnon on Borneo mimic Troides spp.Leonard187 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 02, 2024 4:20 pm I have seen a specimen from N. Borneo with very strange phenotype just like a tailless one with tailed pattern on the hindwings (f anura), so what is its model? Might be Troides sp.?
Yes, and I posted the photo in the archive post I cited above, here it is again. The ssp. eos specimens from Kangean are the males in the middle column and two columns of females to the right.
The first two columns on the left are ssp. memnon from Bawean.
Adam.
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Re: A malformed specimen of Papilio agenor ♀ farmed in Xishuangbanna
by Leonard187 » Mon Dec 02, 2024 4:38 pm
About the white one, I saw a wild-caught female with very white wings. It is attractive due to the white pattern on the cells on hindwings, and the red triangles seem to decreased.adamcotton wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2024 6:52 pm This photo is interesting, it shows how the mimetic patters become less stable in areas of China where the model species (particularly Atrophaneura for the tailless forms) do not occur.
The white form (bottom row right specimen) occurs occasionally naturally in Mukdaharn, NE Thailand, and rarely further west in Thailand and in Laos. I selectively bred this form, and eventually much whiter than this, from breeding stock I obtained from Phrae, as well as many different forms, some similar to the above, some different.
Basically this shows how the phenotype is very plastic, but is controlled in nature by predator pressure. Birds (and maybe other predators such as lizards) in a local area will avoid attacking those forms that closely resemble any local distasteful species. As a result any other form that may arise tends to be selected out (= gets eaten) and over time stable forms are established that mimic the local models very closely.
Interestingly in most places form butlerianus is rather rare. The genes that control this form are recessive to agenor and distantianus and it is only common where the model for form butlerianus occurs (these are female A. astorion astorion in NE India and female A. astorion varuna in the Malay Peninsula). Interestingly where these models occur the recessive 'super-gene' is so common that 50% or more of females are form butlerianus.
Adam.
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Re: Papilio memnon ssp. ♂
by Leonard187 » Mon Dec 02, 2024 4:20 pm
Thanks for the corrections by Adam. I didn't pay much attention to the genus Atrophaneura and I will learn it carefully in the future. It is interested that I found that many female individuals of ssp. anceus on Sumatra have white triangles on the base of forewings instead of red ones distributed on the other islands,not only tailless ones but also tailed (Of course there are still some red ones on this island).adamcotton wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2024 6:28 pm
Yes and yes. As I just posted yesterday, ssp. memnon has a tailed form in Java as well as tailless forms (the same in Bali), but in Borneo the same ssp. only has tailless forms, and they are not identical to those in Java.
Ssp. anceus in Sumatra also has both tailed and tailless forms, but the tailless ones tend to be more common, similarly ssp. eos from Kangean Island, not far from Java can have tailed females, but the various subspecies in the Lesser Sunda Islands east of Bali all only have tailless subspecies.
Subspecies lowii in Palawan is always tailed in both sexes, and interestingly males in Balabac Island (between Borneo and Palawan) range between tailed to tailless and in between.
Subspecies mayo in the Andaman Islands, previously regarded as a separate species, has a tailless male with a distinctive blue hindwing patch, but the female is always tailed, a mimic of the Andaman endemic Losaria rhodifer. There are no tailless forms there, and no tailless models.
Interestingly ssp. memnon was introduced to Ceram and Buru very many years ago (probably on Citrus plants with migrant Javanese), and both tailed and tailless forms still occur there. Luckily they didn't hybridise with the closely related local species Papilio deiphobus.
Adam.
I have seen a specimen from N. Borneo with very strange phenotype just like a tailless one with tailed pattern on the hindwings (f anura), so what is its model? Might be Troides sp.?
Another question, do you have some specimen of ssp. eos? I've not ever seen this ssp before ^0^
Thanks
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Re: Papilio memnon ssp. ♂
by adamcotton » Mon Dec 02, 2024 2:30 pm
As I said above:
Basically, this means that the genes controlling the two basic forms are closely bundled together on the same part of the same chromosome so that the 'super-gene' bundle is almost always unchanged during gamete formation (cell division forming sperm and egg cells).adamcotton wrote: ↑Sat Nov 30, 2024 7:24 pm one is tailless with a black abdomen and a range of different wing patterns very closely associated with these characters depending on the local distasteful Atrophaneura model species (often more than one)
and
the other is tailed with an orange/yellow sided abdomen and the wing pattern mimics the local Pachliopta or Losaria.
These characters are so closely placed on the same chromosomes that 'mixed forms' almost never (extremely rarely) occur - for instance there are only 3 recorded specimens of a tailed form distantianus with a black abdomen.
Clarke, Sheppard & Thornton (1968) investigated the genetics of the then single species and coined the term 'super-gene' for this bundle of characters.
See
https://www.jstor.org/stable/2416804
for the abstract and some further information
and
https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/ ... .1971.0109
for similar information about a subsequent paper by Clarke & Sheppard in 1971.
You asked:
Actually, not necessarily! It would all depend on which 'super-genes' each parent is carrying and whether one is dominant over the other or not. Parents may carry one 'super-gene' on one side of the chromosome and one on the other or they may carry the same 'super-gene' on both sides of the chromosome, so when they mate there can be more than one offspring phenotype.
Adam.
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Re: Papilio memnon ssp. ♂
by Chuck » Mon Dec 02, 2024 1:07 pm
In such a (relatively) small place, what is the driver for two different forms? Is it altitude or another environmental element? North/ south?adamcotton wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2024 6:28 pm
ssp. memnon has a tailed form in Java as well as tailless forms
I presume these two different forms are genetic, thus parents with tails (for example) will produce offspring with tails. True?
I long ago quit trying to figure out memnon, back before the internet, and quit tracking developments. This now though is rather interesting.
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Re: A malformed specimen of Papilio agenor ♀ farmed in Xishuangbanna
by adamcotton » Sun Dec 01, 2024 6:52 pm
The white form (bottom row right specimen) occurs occasionally naturally in Mukdaharn, NE Thailand, and rarely further west in Thailand and in Laos. I selectively bred this form, and eventually much whiter than this, from breeding stock I obtained from Phrae, as well as many different forms, some similar to the above, some different.
Basically this shows how the phenotype is very plastic, but is controlled in nature by predator pressure. Birds (and maybe other predators such as lizards) in a local area will avoid attacking those forms that closely resemble any local distasteful species. As a result any other form that may arise tends to be selected out (= gets eaten) and over time stable forms are established that mimic the local models very closely.
Interestingly in most places form butlerianus is rather rare. The genes that control this form are recessive to agenor and distantianus and it is only common where the model for form butlerianus occurs (these are female A. astorion astorion in NE India and female A. astorion varuna in the Malay Peninsula). Interestingly where these models occur the recessive 'super-gene' is so common that 50% or more of females are form butlerianus.
Adam.
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Re: Troides magellanus
by martellat0 » Sun Dec 01, 2024 6:32 pm
From the photos I have been able to find online, it seems that subspecies sonani tends to be "shorter" i.e. that the forewings are smaller in terms of measurement from apex to dorsum. Additionally, from my cursory viewings, subspecies sonani features more ovate forewings, in contrast to subspecies magellanus, in which the hindwings are noticeably more falcate.
I'm also aware of the existence of two other proposed subspecies as per Okano and Ohkura (1978) namely T. magellanus apoensis and T. magellanus leytensis, though I believe they have also been synonymized with the nominate subspecies, despite still being listed as valid on Wikispecies among other online sources. I'm mainly interested in the differences (if any) between the T. magellanus that occur in the Philippines versus those that occur in Taiwan.
Looking for insight on this - thanks!
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Re: Papilio memnon ssp. ♂
by adamcotton » Sun Dec 01, 2024 6:28 pm
Yes and yes. As I just posted yesterday, ssp. memnon has a tailed form in Java as well as tailless forms (the same in Bali), but in Borneo the same ssp. only has tailless forms, and they are not identical to those in Java.
Ssp. anceus in Sumatra also has both tailed and tailless forms, but the tailless ones tend to be more common, similarly ssp. eos from Kangean Island, not far from Java can have tailed females, but the various subspecies in the Lesser Sunda Islands east of Bali all only have tailless subspecies.
Subspecies lowii in Palawan is always tailed in both sexes, and interestingly males in Balabac Island (between Borneo and Palawan) range between tailed to tailless and in between.
Subspecies mayo in the Andaman Islands, previously regarded as a separate species, has a tailless male with a distinctive blue hindwing patch, but the female is always tailed, a mimic of the Andaman endemic Losaria rhodifer. There are no tailless forms there, and no tailless models.
Interestingly ssp. memnon was introduced to Ceram and Buru very many years ago (probably on Citrus plants with migrant Javanese), and both tailed and tailless forms still occur there. Luckily they didn't hybridise with the closely related local species Papilio deiphobus.
Adam.
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Re: Yearly donation to the InsectNet Classifieds & Forum- 2025
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Re: A malformed specimen of Papilio agenor ♀ farmed in Xishuangbanna
by Leonard187 » Sun Dec 01, 2024 4:09 am
Thanks for your kind reply, Adam. It is very lucky for me having a chance to learn so much from you ^0^. About f.phoenix, I only saw two specimen from your post previously. So what is the 'character' of this form ? Can this specimen I post here be named as f. butlerianus-phoenix ? Of course I also have seen many specimen with 'transitional' phenotype between two typical form and I do not know how to name their form.adamcotton wrote: ↑Sat Nov 30, 2024 7:00 pm I bred some of these many years ago here, it is indeed an aberrant form butlerianus (the recessive form that mimics Atrophaneura astorion female, with a white band along the lower edge of the forewing) with hindwings that look like form phoenix.
Note the malformed forewing is a result of a misshapen right wing case when the pupa was formed. I saw this every so often in agenor, and not always the same shape.
Adam.
I also have a question. I noticed that there are many white individuals in Guangdong, Guangxi, and Hainan, but similar phenotype can not be seen in the other part of China. Are they all named as f.agenor ?
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Re: Santa Cruz County, California med nest builder
by 570S » Sun Dec 01, 2024 1:55 am
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Re: Papilio memnon ssp. ♂
by Chuck » Sun Dec 01, 2024 12:59 am
Forget agenor to avoid my confusion and let’s stick with memnon.
Memnon has subspecies. So does any given ssp have both tailed an tailless forms? Does that the. Depend on location?
Thanks.