InsectNet forum

adamcotton · by adamcotton » Thu Feb 06, 2025 8:42 am

A Japanese once told me that they put glue on the wing base UNDERSIDE, not on top, to prevent specimens from springing in the high humidity there.

Adam.

adamcotton · by adamcotton » Thu Feb 06, 2025 8:41 am

I remember that the original thread about UV induced 'niclasi' had photos of specimens with 'bleached' abdomens. Presumably the UV light exposure turned them pale.

Adam.

Chuck · by Chuck » Thu Feb 06, 2025 1:17 am

Wow. Great analysis by Dr Hyatt.

1. So if I look at the green on a OV rubianus, and see a sheen or shift, it’s structural?

2. When was the first niclasi reported? Aside from which, the number of Lep collectors who have gone to Rannonga is low; even then it’s no guarantee they’d see it. Remember Tennent said he spent eight weeks in San Christobal and that there were no Polyura Jupiter- till I tossed a fresh one on the table. And I scrapped the description of Graphium sarpedon being rare on Guadalcanal, fortunately prior to publication, because they are not- in an area well covered by top level Lep professionals!

OV rubianus is not bred, it’s ranched. So no cross breeding, no selective breeding.

I had flight worn (not bad) niclasi. Damn I wish I’d not gotten rid of them. I don’t think I have photos but I’ll look.

Annarobertson1947 · by Annarobertson1947 » Thu Feb 06, 2025 1:13 am

A common thing particularly for Japanese specimens

mothman55 · by mothman55 » Thu Feb 06, 2025 12:24 am

A few years ago I purchased a few birdwings via eBay, and oddly enough, I just recently realized a couple of the larger ones have what appears to be black glue on the sides of the thorax where the wings attach (dorsal side). As I said, I just recently noticed this, so it is not very noticeable, you would almost have to be looking for it to see it. But when you compare these to ones without the glue, you will see the difference.

I suspect this bit of black glue (a flat grey/black, not shiny and blends with the wing) is applied to prevent the wings from drooping over time, particularly on these large species (Goliath female). It is not attaching detached wings as I relaxed this specimen to remount the wings and the wings moved as one would expect.

Anyway, I am wondering if others have seen this. These two specimens came from Russia about 10 years ago.

jhyatt · by jhyatt » Thu Feb 06, 2025 12:02 am

I'm sure there's some structural color involved, just looking at how the hue can shift with viewing angle. But there can also be underlying pigmentation, I think. That's not the case with the blue Morphos, in which the color is all structural.

jh

58chevy · by 58chevy » Wed Feb 05, 2025 8:43 pm

Is it common knowledge that Ornithoptera species typically have structural color, as in Morphos?

jhyatt · by jhyatt » Wed Feb 05, 2025 7:28 pm

The more I think about it, the more skeptical I become that niclasi is manufactured by UV exposure of a normal green OV. UV light can destroy dyes and pigments, depending on their chemical structure. But for this to work in the OV niclasi case, the normal green color would have to be due to combination of a blue structural color and a UV-labile yellow pigment. If the normal green color is strictly a structural phenomenon, UV should have no effect on it -- UV should not do anything to the physical structure of wing scales. Does anyone know the true origin of the green color (pigment, structural, or a combination of the two)? it may not have been investigated and published. And I find it hard to believe that UV could selectively destroy a yellow pigment without having some visible effect on the black areas of the bug... why wouldn't they fade to brown upon strong UV exposure? Then there's the lack of electricity on Rannonga as Chuck pointed out. And if sunlight can do it, why did the blue form only appear recently?

But bothering me more about the UV origin theory is the potential of selective breeding. If breeding can produce an all-gold colored euphorion, is it so much of a stretch to think that one could breed a blue OV? No one knows what color-producing potential might be lurking in the OV genome, just not commonly "turned on". And there is clearly the potential for blue formation in other birdwings (see urvilleanus, aesacus, caelestis, and there's even a bit of blue visible on most male Trogonoptera).

Niclasi's appearance only on Rannonga is suggestive, and there's this: Has anyone ever seen a flightworn niclasi? All the (admittedly few) examples I've seen have been pristine, and presumably reared in captivity.

It's quite a mystery, no? Are they real wild butterflies, or just farm animals, or products of manufacture using UV light?

jh

adamcotton · by adamcotton » Wed Feb 05, 2025 1:46 pm

Interestingly the paler blue Ornithoptera aesacus from Obi Island is actually green when it emerges from the pupa and turns blue as the wings dry.

Chuck wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2025 1:15 am The only niclasi I ever saw were from Rannonga.

It is quite likely there is a genetic mutation from Rannonga, but presumably 'niclasi' from other islands are artefacts, made by exposing spread dry specimens to UV light. Actually, I wonder whether part of the process could be to expose the newly relaxed specimen to UV light before it has dried, rather than exposing a dry specimen.

Adam.

Chuck · by Chuck » Wed Feb 05, 2025 1:15 am

adamcotton wrote: ↑Tue Feb 04, 2025 10:09 pm
If wild collected specimens really do have these lunules with natural blue scales then you have to ask why was the 'paratype' an artefact.

Adam.

Wouldn’t be the first “close enough” paratype. New sp, ssp, forms etc often are collected before there is an assigned type. If the author needed a photo he might be willing to overlook a few issues. Or need stronger glasses.

Said specimen may not be fraud. Pacific Islanders want to please visitors; you want one with blue lunules, it’s morally ok to make you one. Though cutting lunules does not sound like an island project.

What is fraud is making a fake and pawning it as original. Note the ramifications we see with niclasi, where it is now doubted if it really exists. It does exist as “specimens that come from Rannonga” but the cause is unknown.

I can say that the normal green form of rubianus emerges green, so not like they emerge blue and turn green. The only niclasi I ever saw were from Rannonga. Ask Laurie what he’s seen.

But blue genetic morphs of green Ornithoptera are not unknown. As I am sure I mentioned before, I caught and carried around a blue Ornithoptera on Magnetic Island AUS, finally releasing it and THEN realizing why I struggled with not keeping it.

adamcotton · by adamcotton » Tue Feb 04, 2025 10:09 pm

I was sent magnified photos of the hindwing of a 'paratype' in a European Achillides collection (specimen bought from one of the authors), and the scales on that one were definitely glued and not natural. I looked at the specimen in the link, and I am suspicious because the opposing lunules are not uniform. You cannot see the orientation of the scales without much higher magnification than on the website.

If wild collected specimens really do have these lunules with natural blue scales then you have to ask why was the 'paratype' an artefact.

Adam.

Parnassius26 · by Parnassius26 » Tue Feb 04, 2025 7:14 pm

as far as I am concered, authors caught them by themselves. Also recently I saw available male for sale and scales look ok to me.

https://64online.jp/auction/detail.php?n=1068786

adamcotton · by adamcotton » Tue Feb 04, 2025 6:24 pm

Parnassius26 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 04, 2025 3:53 pm is it the reference to f. elisabethae from Pombo?

Yes, that's the one. The scales in the submarginal lunules are not in line as in nature but at all different angles, unlike scales on the rest of the wings, and traces of the glue are visible. I don't want to blame the author who was almost certainly scammed by an unscrupulous seller, so I didn't name him.

Adam.

Chuck · by Chuck » Tue Feb 04, 2025 5:39 pm

Going from memory here, of both what I’ve had in hand and seen in institutional collections and eBay-

I have only seen niclasi in ssp rubianus

The gold form I believe is in all ssp, though more common in Bougainville.

The red form in all ssp, except maybe epiphanes.

I’m not up on all the named forms of OV. There are other color anomalies I’ve seen that are not named, such as one where the green and yellow in the male on the ventral side is all uniform olive drab. And of course more of one color than normal, larger and smaller areas of color, etc. OV are, as I’ve said, extremely variable.

Parnassius26 · by Parnassius26 » Tue Feb 04, 2025 3:53 pm

adamcotton wrote: ↑Mon Feb 03, 2025 7:56 pm
wollastoni wrote: ↑Mon Feb 03, 2025 4:20 pm I am still waiting for a live picture of a fresh niclasi to change my mind.
You will have to wait for ever, I suspect. The same author described form 'niclasi' in 3 different subspecies of Ornithoptera victoriae, but strangely no blue specimens were ever seen back in the old days.

In another publication the same author described a form of Papilio ulysses from a small island near SE Ceram. This has thin blue submarginal lunules on the hindwings. I have seen magnified photos of a 'paratype' (infrasubspecific names cannot have types) and can confirm that the scales have been glued onto the wings. I suspect that the author was scammed.

Adam.

is it the reference to f. elisabethae from Pombo?

Chuck · by Chuck » Tue Feb 04, 2025 3:33 pm

Niclasi pre-dates my first arrival on Rannonga, which was early 2001. I didn’t see any (alive or papered) then, IIRC it was 2003.

During this period Solomon Islands was in civil war, so the ability to get papered specimens from a remote island to the only international resellers and the airfield was limited. Before 1998 there had been a thriving export market, so virtually every remote village would collect pupae then sell adults, but that died in 1998. By 2001 most villages might have four OV papered “just in case” but would routinely have to toss them out due to rot and lack of a buyer. So buying OV was limited to what some village might have on hand.

I can’t imagine on Rannonga especially they’d go to any trouble to change the rot-prone OV into niclasi. The little income they were getting was from carved river stones, not Ornithoptera.

Note too, the visual difference between wild-supplied niclasi and EBay fakes is significant. How would one modify ONLY the large green areas and not everything else?

Keep in mind (concerning island-modified niclasi theory) that OV are common as dirt. On nearby Rendova Island, at least, the kids play a game- scratch your name on the wings, release it, and see if it gets recaptured. On these remote islands any moron can walk to the edge of the rain forest and return with pupae in 15 minutes.

adamcotton · by adamcotton » Tue Feb 04, 2025 2:11 pm

Baldie wrote: ↑Mon Feb 03, 2025 8:44 pm Does it want something? Like waiting for a mate,resting or even hibernating(?)

Both sexes of these moths do not feed and only live for about 1 week, the female slightly longer, so they definitely do not hibernate. Their only 'purpose' is to mate and for females to lay eggs. When a female emerges from its cocoon it will 'call' males by releasing vaporous pheromones from the abdomen. The large feathery (pectinate) antennae of the male detect these pheromones in the air, sometimes from quite far away, and then males will fly to the female to mate.

It is possible the male will be conserving energy while waiting to detect the pheromones released by a female but they generally fly at a particular time of night, so it could wait there for 24 hours after arrival.

Adam.

adamcotton · by adamcotton » Tue Feb 04, 2025 2:00 pm

Indeed it is possible that they were spread in the sun until they turned blue, then relaxed and papered - but then why do that and then charge the same amount for them?

I checked Haugum & Low's monograph (part I, from 1978) which absolutely does not mention any blue forms of O. victoriae, only some RED aberrations.

Perhaps a blue genetic mutation occurred on Rannonga relatively recently.

Adam.

daveuk · by daveuk » Tue Feb 04, 2025 1:42 pm

Recently acquired this bred pair of these exquisite day flying Australian moths. Ten years ago while in central Queensland I saw a single male on the wing which I tried in vain to net. Nice to finally have this species in my collection.
Had an accident with the antennae on both male & female when removing from the boards so a repair job was required. Really annoyed with myself. They were absolutely perfect when I received them papered. Was warned by a friend on the forum to be very careful as Noctuid antennae are very tricky.
Turned out he was absolutely right !!

wollastoni · by wollastoni » Tue Feb 04, 2025 10:59 am

Interesting Chuck, were your niclasi, old specimens. Maybe the sun itself can turn OV blue...

InsectNet forum

InsectNet forum

Re: Black glue on birdwings

Re: Ornithoptera victoriae rubianus "niclasi"

Re: Ornithoptera victoriae rubianus "niclasi"

Re: Black glue on birdwings

Black glue on birdwings

Re: Ornithoptera victoriae rubianus "niclasi"

Re: Ornithoptera victoriae rubianus "niclasi"

Re: Ornithoptera victoriae rubianus "niclasi"

Re: Ornithoptera victoriae rubianus "niclasi"

Re: Ornithoptera victoriae rubianus "niclasi"

Re: Ornithoptera victoriae rubianus "niclasi"

Re: Ornithoptera victoriae rubianus "niclasi"

Re: Ornithoptera victoriae rubianus "niclasi"

Re: Ornithoptera victoriae rubianus "niclasi"

Re: Ornithoptera victoriae rubianus "niclasi"

Re: Ornithoptera victoriae rubianus "niclasi"

Re: What species does this big moth belong to?

Re: Ornithoptera victoriae rubianus "niclasi"

Joseph's Coat Moth. Agarista agricola. Australia

Re: Ornithoptera victoriae rubianus "niclasi"