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Topic: Florida collecting issues | Author: Chuck | Replies: 13 | Views: 152
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Re: Florida collecting issues

by Chuck » Tue Nov 12, 2024 3:06 pm

Thanks Vernon, that letter on USDA letterhead concerning collecting in National Forests is invaluable. Nothing beats written instructions from the oversight agency. You did address various "opinions" from the uninformed, including from the agency employees that should know; I too have run into this, and it cost me a good chunk of money, following instructions from just such people. Why we allow government employees to voice "opinion" or take action, and not actually knowing what they're talking about, is beyond me, but as you pointed out it's all too common.

In some cases, "authorities" make rules based on their own feelings. Generally, because they can get away with it. This promulgates fake information particularly on the internet because anecdotal events & information get repeated, without vetting, and are taken up as truth. This forum went round-and-round on CITES with so many "opinions" from those who couldn't be bothered to read CITES.

I'm going to pick on my friend:
eurytides wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2024 12:14 am It’s like golf clubs. You can be denied entrance if you don’t follow a dress code for example.
He doesn't belong to a golf club. He never has. I don't know this, but I'll put money on it. So he's repeating what he's been told by somebody, or "conventional wisdom." He's generalizing, which is not applicable to all golf clubs. And dress code is determined also if you arrive in a Kia or an AMG Mercedes. And on and on.

I could have sworn there was a thread on collecting in National Parks and National Forests, but I could not find it. I wonder if one of the mods might split this off as a new topic, since the posted letter is priceless, and the discussion is smattered all over various threads.
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Size differences in Papilio demoleus libianus ex larva

by martellat0 » Tue Nov 12, 2024 2:35 pm

Image

Recently I reared a few specimens of Papilio demoleus libianus from early instar larvae collected from Citrus × microcarpa in my garden. They were reared concurrently and I believe they come from the same brood. I decided to set aside one of them to perform a little experiment - I fed this particular caterpillar less than the others, providing a few leaves only, and sometimes allowing the leaves in its container to run out before replenishing them. In contrast, the other caterpillars were given entire cuttings with an ample amount of leaves, which were replaced with fresh ones daily.

The caterpillar which had been provided with less food took a full day more (i.e. upwards of 24 hours) to eclose compared to the rest, and when it did, it was markedly smaller than the (only) other female. Upon measuring the mounted specimens, the difference was about 1.5 cm in terms of wingspan. I might also note that both specimens pictured were given adequate time to fully inflate their wings: I waited about 6 hours after eclosion to euthanize them, after which they were immediately mounted.

Of course, a difference of 1.5 cm is not what one might call "spectacular", nor is the revelation that giving less food to a caterpillar will (obviously) result in a smaller imago particularly groundbreaking news, but I find it nonetheless rewarding to perform such experiments and to see this causality for myself. I'll probably be attempting similar experiments with other reared specimens in the future.
Topic: Does Papilio rutulus have a spring form? And more... | Author: Chuck | Replies: 11 | Views: 174
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Re: Does Papilio rutulus have a spring form? And more...

by Chuck » Tue Nov 12, 2024 1:07 pm

Thanks Vernon. That species is what I was thinking about- amongst others.

But the question remains- does Papilio rutulus have a "spring form" (whatever that may mean) or are these just small individuals?
Topic: Nebria complanata, Groix island, France | Author: wollastoni | Replies: 1 | Views: 12
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Nebria complanata, Groix island, France

by wollastoni » Tue Nov 12, 2024 10:49 am

I had the pleasure of observing Nebria complanata for the first time in my life on the island of Groix, Brittany, NW France.
This carnivorous species hides under pebbles on European and North African sandy beaches and feeds on sand hoppers.

Image

This species has almost completely disappeared from European coasts. One of the suspected reasons for this is the cleaning of beaches by tourists, who remove seaweed from the beaches.

However, the species has also disappeared from natural, non-tourist beaches, so this is not the only reason.
Topic: Florida collecting issues | Author: Chuck | Replies: 13 | Views: 152
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Re: Florida collecting issues

by wollastoni » Tue Nov 12, 2024 8:58 am

Hello Vernon : stick to our rules. You agreed to them by registering to the forum.
I fully support Adam's action about your post. No politics here.

BTW our moderation is SO STRICT that we have edited 6 posts on about 2247 in that last year (if I exclude spams).

And while I am here, if you stay on InsectNet, please stop increasing the size of your words. It looks horrible and gives the feeling you are shouting. If it is for reading purpose, you can easily increase the size of all letters on your screen editing your browser parameters.

Welcome John. And thank you for this useful information for our members.
Topic: Florida collecting issues | Author: Chuck | Replies: 13 | Views: 152
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Re: Florida collecting issues

by eurytides » Tue Nov 12, 2024 12:14 am

I think I read somewhere we were not to discuss religion or politics here. I have no issue with this. And while free speech is important, this isn’t a public forum. This forum is owned by someone who pays for it to be hosted. They have the right to delete what they want or to deny individuals membership. It’s like golf clubs. You can be denied entrance if you don’t follow a dress code for example.
Topic: Florida collecting issues | Author: Chuck | Replies: 13 | Views: 152
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Re: Florida collecting issues

by vabrou » Mon Nov 11, 2024 11:23 pm

edited by admin
Topic: Does Papilio rutulus have a spring form? And more... | Author: Chuck | Replies: 11 | Views: 174
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Re: Does Papilio rutulus have a spring form? And more...

by vabrou » Mon Nov 11, 2024 10:41 pm

Chuck,

I look at size differences being usually nothing more than what occurs within the various annual broods. E.g. here in Louisiana there are lepidoptera having 13 annual broods and on the opposite end, just one annual brood and every scenario in between. I have documented in print publications proving various phenologies involving over 1000 species of Lepidoptera and other insects here in Louisiana. To describe what happens for example to the well known Actias luna is that members of the first of five annual broods has a narrow streamlined size with bright brilliant green colored scales. The first brood peaking end of March and at 36-day intervals, last brood peaking end of August. Each successive brood of A. luna appears wider in size and less brilliant in color until the last brood which is very broad in size very faded drab green color.

Look e.g. at (Eurytides marcellus) = Protographium marcellus (Cramer) here in Louisiana. This species has four annual broods here in Louisiana.
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Topic: Florida collecting issues | Author: Chuck | Replies: 13 | Views: 152
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Re: Florida collecting issues

by vabrou » Mon Nov 11, 2024 9:37 pm

jhyatt,

You may remember that in 2011 (13 years ago) I encountered a Forest Ranger that decided to make up his own personal permitting system, unbeknownst to the Forest Service in order to collect insects in the National Forest areas in the state of Louisiana. This is not an uncommon situation caused by numerous useless and unnecessary government employees. I knew that this overzealous employee was WRONG. I requested the matter be addressed for all of the National Forest locations in North America. Attached is the official response from the Head office of the Nat. Forest Service. After this, I was never again bothered by this clown. I was assured that this wayward employee would be redirected by senior management.

Here in the US our government is massively out of control. There are 23.7 million full-time and part-time employees of our Government, 4.0 million federal employees, (excluding armed forces), 5.5 million state employees, 14.2 million local government employees. political comments removed by moderator
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Topic: ID of machaon, bairdii, indra, zelicaon | Author: Chuck | Replies: 7 | Views: 74
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Re: ID of machaon, bairdii, indra, zelicaon

by adamcotton » Mon Nov 11, 2024 7:31 pm

Chuck wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2024 12:50 pm So I start with a list of SSP from iNaturalist (edited & updated thanks Adam)
For some reason you didn't delete gorganus from machaon.

Adam.
Topic: ID of machaon, bairdii, indra, zelicaon | Author: Chuck | Replies: 7 | Views: 74
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Re: ID of machaon, bairdii, indra, zelicaon

by adamcotton » Mon Nov 11, 2024 7:27 pm

I am not sure why Wayne Whalley never described the population officially. Perhaps there were legal reasons, such as the population perhaps being confined to a protected area?

As far as I know technically it is Papilio indra (undescribed population).

Adam.
Topic: ID of machaon, bairdii, indra, zelicaon | Author: Chuck | Replies: 7 | Views: 74
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Re: ID of machaon, bairdii, indra, zelicaon

by Chuck » Mon Nov 11, 2024 6:20 pm

adamcotton wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2024 2:29 pm Chuck,
Chuck wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2024 12:50 pm bonevilli ? what happened to this one?
This taxon was never formally described, but was referred to as bonnevillei by Wayne Whalley. This paper by Todd Stout is very helpful:
http://www.utahlepsociety.org/volume7_number1.pdf

I've read that before. So is "bonnevillei" the purported taxon still up for grabs? Why would noone describe it? Harry P inferred to me that someone had. If that's the case, what's the current name, please?
Topic: Florida collecting issues | Author: Chuck | Replies: 13 | Views: 152
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Re: Florida collecting issues

by JVCalhoun » Mon Nov 11, 2024 5:54 pm

I agree that persistence often leads to surprising discoveries. That being said, most of the butterfly species in Florida are relatively well understood, though there are always bizarre records of tropical species turning up in northern Florida, and there are several additional species that could still turn up in the state (e.g., P. bulenta). There are interesting things going on in the panhandle in association with that suture zone, and some Neotropical species that occur in South Florida should probably be reexamined to better understand their subspecific status (e.g., E. atala, and historical vs more recent populations of C. thomasi).

John
Topic: Does Papilio rutulus have a spring form? And more... | Author: Chuck | Replies: 11 | Views: 174
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Re: Does Papilio rutulus have a spring form? And more...

by Chuck » Mon Nov 11, 2024 5:40 pm

Left is the small one I was asking if it might be spring form rutulus. I have two from the Denver area, two different counties, both May. Also one the same size and looks similar from Arizona.

Right specimen is a typical rutulus from late June COS. Most of the rutulus I have, from all over, are about the same size, except the two COS May and the one Az.

So are the small ones just an accidental sample, and most May individuals larger?

Image
Topic: Papilio bjorkae (Pavulaan, 2024) Tiger Swallowtail | Author: Chuck | Replies: 73 | Views: 5282
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Re: Papilio bjorkae (Pavulaan, 2024) Tiger Swallowtail

by JVCalhoun » Mon Nov 11, 2024 5:37 pm

Thanks, Adam.
Topic: ID of machaon, bairdii, indra, zelicaon | Author: Chuck | Replies: 7 | Views: 74
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Re: ID of machaon, bairdii, indra, zelicaon

by Chuck » Mon Nov 11, 2024 3:08 pm

eurytides wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2024 2:23 pm I am waiting for someone to also delve into P. joanae at some point! 😂
Odd. I just jumped on iNat and it comes back with "no observations" I think it's having a glitch.

My southern stomping ground is to the east of what's generally considered to be joanae territory. However, past searches in iNat show (reported) observations into KY and other states. So now and then I'd grab a black swallowtail for later investigation.

The problem I had is that the morphological discriminators for P joanae aren't consistent- the original description doesn't match the notes that became the description; later guides to ID also don't agree. I have multiple polyxenes with attached eyes, and floating eyes.

Ranges aside, a differentiator for joanae was purportedly that it's a forest species, and polyxenes a field species. That was fine 30 years ago, but now up this way I'm just as likely to encounter polyxenes in the forest as in the field- it's habits have changed.

So I gave up trying to say whether a specimen is joanae or polyxenes. They're all together in the same drawers. Let someone else figure it out.
Topic: ID of machaon, bairdii, indra, zelicaon | Author: Chuck | Replies: 7 | Views: 74
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Re: ID of machaon, bairdii, indra, zelicaon

by adamcotton » Mon Nov 11, 2024 2:29 pm

Chuck,
Chuck wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2024 12:50 pm bonevilli ? what happened to this one?
This taxon was never formally described, but was referred to as bonnevillei by Wayne Whalley. This paper by Todd Stout is very helpful:
http://www.utahlepsociety.org/volume7_number1.pdf

brucei is a form of P. bairdii bairdii, gorganus only occurs in Europe, not in N America and montanus is a junior homonym (thus unavailable) and belongs to Papilio everesti alpherakyi from West China.

Adam.
Topic: ID of machaon, bairdii, indra, zelicaon | Author: Chuck | Replies: 7 | Views: 74
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Re: ID of machaon, bairdii, indra, zelicaon

by eurytides » Mon Nov 11, 2024 2:23 pm

I am waiting for someone to also delve into P. joanae at some point! 😂
Topic: Florida collecting issues | Author: Chuck | Replies: 13 | Views: 152
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Re: Florida collecting issues

by Chuck » Mon Nov 11, 2024 1:08 pm

Good info Mr. Calhoun, thank you.

I have a research permit for NY State Parks, approval from the Seneca Nation, and also from one of the regional land trust organizations. It's easy up this way now since I'm a known entity. So I guess when I get to Florida, and figure out what needs field work, I'll have to start chasing down permits.

What I've found in NY is, beyond the changing taxonomy based on genetics, the ranges of many species is unknown. Hard to believe for NY. And just yesterday- yes, in November! I found the second specimen of a southern grasshopper up here. Most of my research (in NY, and wordwide) involves spending time in the field, but also going places nobody wants to go to, and in the heat of summer.

I wonder- is Florida similar? Backyard species are well known, but many others are not? Or are new details only coming from Everglades (it's not like there's mountains to climb and search.)
Topic: ID of machaon, bairdii, indra, zelicaon | Author: Chuck | Replies: 7 | Views: 74
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ID of machaon, bairdii, indra, zelicaon

by Chuck » Mon Nov 11, 2024 12:50 pm

After tackling my drawer of "canadensis" I took a peek at another frustrating series- North American black and yellow swallowtails. Forget the European specimens!

It seems, to me, that this group is hard to ID morphologically (for me, at least) because there are yellowy forms, and dark forms, and short and long tail forms. Ranges are tough because some overlap.

Even after sorting out the obviously-zelicaon, I'm left with a bunch that are going to challenge me.

So I start with a list of SSP from iNaturalist (edited & updated thanks Adam)

INDRA
calcicola
fordi
indra
kaibabensis
martini
minori
nevadensis
panamintensis
parvindra
pergamus
phyllisae
pygmaeus
shastensis
bonevilli ? TBD? need to study more

BAIRDII
bairdii
dodi
oregonia

MACHAON (in NA...probably incomplete)
aliaska
hudsonianus
pikei

I'm sure Adam can correctly update that list. And I'm sure there are those that can ID 98% of specimens morphologically; I'm not one of them.

It looks like butterfliesandmoths.org and Utah Leps haven't been updated in a while http://utahlepsociety.org/indra.html so I'm a bit at a loss of where to even start.