InsectNet forum

wollastoni · by wollastoni » Wed May 22, 2024 9:53 am

The interesting Insectorama fair in Seraing (Belgium) will take place on the 6th October 2024 (one week anticipation versus what was at first announced).

See our list of insect fairs in 2024 here : https://insectnet.com/blog/insect-colle ... nsect-fair

wollastoni · by wollastoni » Wed May 22, 2024 9:50 am

Chuck wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2024 12:18 pm
wollastoni wrote: ↑Mon May 20, 2024 1:33 pm
Agrias are involved in very complex mimicry rings triggering different forms in each zone of Amazonia. Studying the distribution of each forms is very interesting. Each Rio of Amazonia seems to trigger different forms, these are the local forms. Then you have some individual forms (various forms inside the same population). Then you have "hybridization" between forms/subpecies at contact zones. Mix all that, and you have the craziness of Agrias (sub)genus ! That's why they are so interesting to study/collect.

A situation we are finding is far more common that ever thought- and not just in butterflies. Regional speciation in progress, recombinant hybrids, etc. In so many taxa, we can no longer put a specimen into a nice little "species box" anymore.

Indeed I guess it happens on several species group everywhere... and especially in Amazonia where Rios seems to build isolated populations. But on most species, you won't see it at work (except in DNA). In Agrias, it is visible, and in an impressive way.

vabrou · by vabrou » Wed May 22, 2024 12:08 am

A few clearwing moths from my yard, St Tammany Parish, Louisiana, USA. Now to relax them and pin and spread, and label them. There were a lot more, but these will do for now. These were captured using lures that have been sitting in my traps for over a year. Imagine if I would have used new fresh lures.

Annarobertson1947 · by Annarobertson1947 » Tue May 21, 2024 11:20 pm

Agreed,i do same when selling, this time of year i sell off excess on eBay

58chevy · by 58chevy » Tue May 21, 2024 9:47 pm

Were all those Trichiotinus & Trigonopelastes collected in light traps?

58chevy · by 58chevy » Tue May 21, 2024 9:38 pm

Vernon, thanks for the pdf. Good info. Impressive horns on the antaeus.

Chuck · by Chuck » Tue May 21, 2024 12:26 pm

Annarobertson1947 wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2024 7:47 am I understand this but one would have to admit that a lot of dealers do stretch things in asking price to point of absurdity

There is of course the point of asking as much as possible to maximize profit. There's a good chance somebody will come along and pay it. Remember, there are those for whom paying $300 too much is nothing, because it's only $300.

On the other hand, high $$ value attracts those who see themselves as top rarities collectors. I learned this many years ago at the LA Bug Show- I had a rare beetle that didn't sell on day 1. But instead of reducing the price on Day 2, I tripled the price. It sold quickly...then others were running to ask if I had more.

Finally, the high-$$ specimens may be part of the dealer's collection and they don't need to sell it, maybe don't want to sell it. I do this. I may price a $4000 item at $6000; you want to pay $6000 then you can have it, but otherwise I'll keep it, thank you.

It's easy for a dealer to initially price high, and reduce the price if it doesn't sell. That is what's typically and universally done.

Chuck · by Chuck » Tue May 21, 2024 12:18 pm

wollastoni wrote: ↑Mon May 20, 2024 1:33 pm
Agrias are involved in very complex mimicry rings triggering different forms in each zone of Amazonia. Studying the distribution of each forms is very interesting. Each Rio of Amazonia seems to trigger different forms, these are the local forms. Then you have some individual forms (various forms inside the same population). Then you have "hybridization" between forms/subpecies at contact zones. Mix all that, and you have the craziness of Agrias (sub)genus ! That's why they are so interesting to study/collect.

A situation we are finding is far more common that ever thought- and not just in butterflies. Regional speciation in progress, recombinant hybrids, etc. In so many taxa, we can no longer put a specimen into a nice little "species box" anymore.

Chuck · by Chuck » Tue May 21, 2024 12:09 pm

adamcotton wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2024 8:50 am Maybe they mated, laid eggs and now there are larvae 'everywhere'? It will be interesting to see what happens later in the year.

Adam.

A reasonable hypothesis, which had not occurred to me. If this is the case, the young Urtica foodplants would be stripped to nothing; though, they readily regrow. Yes, I suppose we may well be revisiting this in a month or so!

wollastoni · by wollastoni » Tue May 21, 2024 9:20 am

It is all about offer and demand, Anna.
If sellers don't sell their "rare forms", the price will decrease.

Prices are going down on Agrias for various reasons :
- several species are now bred. Prices of phalcidon excelsior forms have collapsed for example. From $1,000 to $100 in few years.
- more and more "old collections" are for sale in Europe (many collectors are very old / dead and their collection are for sale), reinjecting a lot of Agrias specimens on the market.

adamcotton · by adamcotton » Tue May 21, 2024 8:50 am

Maybe they mated, laid eggs and now there are larvae 'everywhere'? It will be interesting to see what happens later in the year.

Adam.

Annarobertson1947 · by Annarobertson1947 » Tue May 21, 2024 7:47 am

I understand this but one would have to admit that a lot of dealers do stretch things in asking price to point of absurdity

Paul K · by Paul K » Mon May 20, 2024 10:55 pm

I saw few 150km north of Toronto but nothing like few weeks ago on the shores of Lake Ontario

Chuck · by Chuck » Mon May 20, 2024 2:55 pm

Now that I think of it, I've not seen any in a while. Watch, I'll spot one later today. But, clearly they are not blasting around by the hundreds anymore.

wollastoni · by wollastoni » Mon May 20, 2024 1:33 pm

Don't see them like that.
Agrias are involved in very complex mimicry rings triggering different forms in each zone of Amazonia. Studying the distribution of each forms is very interesting. Each Rio of Amazonia seems to trigger different forms, these are the local forms. Then you have some individual forms (various forms inside the same population). Then you have "hybridization" between forms/subpecies at contact zones. Mix all that, and you have the craziness of Agrias (sub)genus ! That's why they are so interesting to study/collect.

Especially on some species like phalcidon (the king of Agrias species to my mind).

Chuck · by Chuck » Mon May 20, 2024 12:05 pm

We've discussed this here in the past, same story.

LA is a great show, specimens you won't find commercially (some people don't feel like shipping), plus you get to meet some great collectors.

I tried on the east coast, there's little interest and costs are high (particularly insurance). The only way this could start up is as suggested, get some other collectors to start a niche at a gem or reptile show.

European shows are more successful because:
1. Momentum- once a show is running it's "easy" to keep going; starting a show is tough.
2. Not too far/ expensive- All of Europe can fit into US northeast; NY to California is a full day of air travel each way
3. US has plenty of forests and wild areas close to just about anywhere, less of a need to buy specimens
4. Culture- Europeans are more into exotic stuff like aquarium fishes, antiquities, etc.
5. USA has more alternative interest opportunities...Europe has far fewer motorcyles, snowmobiles, camping, etc. There more Porsches in USA and even more ski resorts in USA than in Europe.

lamprima2 · by lamprima2 » Mon May 20, 2024 3:04 am

Thanks, Chuck

Annarobertson1947 · by Annarobertson1947 » Sun May 19, 2024 11:41 pm

wollastoni wrote: ↑Sun May 19, 2024 3:46 pm Excellent books indeed.

And the more you will study Agrias, the more questions you will have ! It is a very interesting (and difficult) group.

Well the confusion is compounded by the plethora of form names that i see as a money making system for dealers.

wollastoni · by wollastoni » Sun May 19, 2024 4:18 pm

Another great video from my colleague Michel Belloin in French Guiana.
It gives you an idea of how diverse the fauna is in Amazonia (when not destroyed).

wollastoni · by wollastoni » Sun May 19, 2024 3:46 pm

Excellent books indeed.

And the more you will study Agrias, the more questions you will have ! It is a very interesting (and difficult) group.

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