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Euthalia anosia
by daveuk » Sun Feb 05, 2023 11:07 am
A female & two males from Bali Indonesia
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Re: From pinned to riker?
by kevinkk » Sun Feb 05, 2023 7:24 am
and tweezers to push the body off, It worked 99% of the time without a problem.
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Re: Does anyone have a bigger one? I mean an agrippina
by Trehopr1 » Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:13 am
This is a phenomenal species of moth which is probably most notable for its sheer wing expanse. Males typically fall (within the size range) of somewhere between 8 (1/2) and 10 inches wingspan when the trailing edge of the forewings are perpendicular to the body.
Females (start) at about the 10-in wingspan on up to 11 1/2 +. Their bodies tend to be heftier in build and because they carry the eggs their wingspan is naturally bigger for more lift.
The species seems to be fairly available. Specimens with an honest wingspan of 10 inches or more can get (very pricey) because of course, everyone wants the biggest example they can find. I have seen at least a dozen present in private collections here in the US but, most were (males).
The largest example that I have ever seen (personally) was a very impressive female measuring just over 11 (1/4) inches in the collection of Hermann Strecker.
If anyone does own a larger example than the specimen measured by Guinness; then I doubt that they would advertise it.
Some people are very reserved about the things that they own and simply don't feel the need to advertise (or bring attention to themselves) over any outstanding things they have acquired.
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From pinned to riker?
by akraider » Sun Feb 05, 2023 1:25 am
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Does anyone have a bigger one? I mean an agrippina
by joachim » Sun Feb 05, 2023 12:29 am
I bought this one once in the 70's at an insect fair for relatively little money. I think the butterfly is not rare.
https://e1.pcloud.link/publink/show?cod ... EDbB711axX
Joachim
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Re: Canada to US?
by Chuck » Sat Feb 04, 2023 5:14 pm
I'm struggling to think of something significant that was accomplished by anyone who was NOT obsessive.
As for a series of thousands...
The North American Lycaenid guys did some genetic analysis, and turned the field guides upside down. Now they're scrambling to find fairly common blues from fairly common locations; nobody had bothered to collect them because they were, for a century, just common blues.
I've caught, and raised, thousands of Callosamia promethea. So many would come to the lights that I'd take them around the dark side of the house and toss them into the forest, hoping they'd go away. I retained only a few that stood out as brilliant or different. Then one day I pulled out my Callosamia drawer- which held only a half dozen pair- and stopped: THAT is not promethea, that's angulifera. And I looked at the others- that wasn't the only angulifera specimen! So a month ago this came back to me, along with the fact that Saturnids have disappeared, so I dug out my papered specimens and sure enough, those I had from 1980s are ALL promethea. Unfortunately in a way, the papered specimens I pulled out were those that had been forgotten when I'd given away thousands of specimens to Cornell only three months ago. And in what I donated, I know for a fact that there were promethea...but I don't know if there were angulifera. Besides which I also have specimens I can't tell if they are promethea or angulifera, and all date within the past decade or so; the older ones are all promethea. So now I have to wait for Cornell grad students to set all those to figure out what the heck happened to promethea & angulifera in my area.
My research on Tiger Swallowtails in NY has well demonstrated the need for series. In examining three private collections from 1970s-1980s with 14,000 and 6,000 and 3,000 specimens respectively, each collection held but a dozen Tiger Swallowtails. Why? Because they were just Papilio glaucus, they were common. And not just private collections- institutional collections suffer the same hole. And the geneticists also were missing test specimens from NY/ PA/ CT, but had plenty from VA and MI. That's now taken care of.
My field work in 2022 yielded 84 local specimens. Half were frozen and went to the geneticists. The other half were set for morphological analysis. And what that revealed caused me to take my 2021 unpublished paper and throw it away. A series demonstrates consistency, but also outliers; add in the specimens I got in KY and PA and it becomes clear that oft-published morphological identifiers are not at all reliable.
So yes, there are a number of reasons to have a series. I never bought into keeping series, but I am a firm believer now.
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Re: Canada to US?
by kevinkk » Sat Feb 04, 2023 4:39 pm
Interesting individuals as well, seemed a little obsessive, I recall seeing a program where a collector had what must have been
thousands of Colias, a single species, just case after case and on, of course, that was done legally, the point of interest was the
amount of animals . Seemed a bit pointless to me, having thousands of the same butterfly, and that's all he collected, there was
nothing else, at least they didn't show so on the interview.
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Re: Canada to US?
by eurytides » Sat Feb 04, 2023 12:09 am
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Re: Canada to US?
by livingplanet3 » Fri Feb 03, 2023 8:50 pm
That's my understanding of the situation as well. I seem to recall reading a news story some years ago about someone being prosecuted for selling P. indra kaibabensis specimens, but don't know if it was ever proven that they were actually collected in GCNP. It seems that the logic was that, because the majority of this subspecies' range is apparently within the park's boundaries, the authorities assumed that the specimens were collected there. Obviously though, this wouldn't necessarily have been the case, as undoubtedly, this ssp. ranges outside the park's borders to some extent. Also - surely someone has captive-bred kaibabensis by now? If anyone can elaborate on the above comments, I'd be interested to hear. I'm not very knowledgeable about kaibabensis, or any of the other ssp. of indra, for that matter.Papilio_indra wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:35 am P. indra kaibabensis is protected within the boundaries of Grand Canyon National Park, along with all of the other species of Lepidoptera within the park. I believe that outside of the park it is not protected.
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Re: Papilio toboroi
by kevinkk » Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:41 pm
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Re: Papilio toboroi
by Chuck » Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:58 pm
Throughout the Pacific it's very common to see Euploea flying around far out to sea. One million Danaus plexippus fly over 100km of Lake Ontario every year from Ontario CA to NY during the migration. And I've heard of various species, including Sphingidae, that sometimes can be found in Britain, so they must fly over some distance of water.adamcotton wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:41 pm
Indeed, even a few kilometres can isolate species or subspecies, even for normally relatively strong fliers. I suppose they don't generally want to fly out to sea. Having said that, I seem to remember there are old records of 'migrations' over water for some species.
Adam.
Papilio though don't seem to be regular distance flyers. Ornithoptera priamus urvilleanus hasn't been discovered to make the jump from Guadalcanal to Makira, and they are pretty strong fliers with great ability to sail on the winds.
Ultimately, it probably is mis-labeling. I wonder who wants to go to Bougainville and do a survey.
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Re: Canada to US?
by Papilio_indra » Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:35 am
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Re: Papilio toboroi
by adamcotton » Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:41 pm
Indeed, even a few kilometres can isolate species or subspecies, even for normally relatively strong fliers. I suppose they don't generally want to fly out to sea. Having said that, I seem to remember there are old records of 'migrations' over water for some species.
Adam.
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Re: Canada to US?
by adamcotton » Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:34 pm
I was going to point out the same name change. This has been removed from CITES appendix I because it is officially considered as extinct in the USA, which asked for it to be listed.
I seem to remember it is, someone here can confirm. I suppose it is State rather than Federal protection?
Adam.
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Re: Canada to US?
by eurytides » Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:27 pm
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Re: Papilio toboroi
by Chuck » Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:15 pm
Occam's Razor would suggest that.adamcotton wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:49 pm Sadly, I suspect that the data is erroneous, for any one of many reasons.
Adam.
That said, I did find a new ssp of Satyrid in Solomon Islands, separated by only a few KM from a larger island.
And Bougainville's shoreline is nice low jungle, while the mountains rise to 13,000 ft. So there would be several plausible scenarios.
The more I learn the more I realize that nothing is concrete, and the more ignorant I feel.
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Re: Papilio toboroi
by adamcotton » Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:49 pm
Adam.
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Re: largest moth wingspan question
by adamcotton » Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:47 pm
Yes, it is quite likely that Gardiner's measurement was in a natural position, since his book is about rearing live silkmoths.
The generally accepted measurement is from the joint at the base of the forewing to the farthest point at the apex in a straight line, not along the costal edge of the wing.
Adam.
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Re: Papilio toboroi
by Chuck » Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:59 pm
That's interesting! Very!
It's "Buka" Island. "North Solomon Province" is the old name for Bougainville, Buka, and other small islands.
Kieta is on the east coast of Bougainville Island, about 1/3 of the way up the island from Solomon Islands. If you specimen label is correct, and certainly it looks like ssp straatmani, I'm shocked that the ssp would be on Bougainville at all.
Buka Island is off the NW tip of Bougainville. You can almost throw a stone from Buka to Bougainville. So if the labels are correct, it's also surprising that little Buka Passage could separate the two ssp. Or, that both ssp occur on Bougainville.