LIVESTOCK IMPORTATION

[FOXXDOC]

AS WE ALL KNOW WE ARE LIMITED ON LIVE STOCK IMPORTATION; BUT WHAT ABOUT EUROPE ?
IN THE 70'S I COULD PURCHASE FROM WORLD WIDE BUTTERFLIES IN THE UK JUST ABOUT ANY SPECIES ( OR AT LEAST WHATEVER THEY HAD ). AS AN EXAMPLE CAN UK CITIZENS IMPORT BIRDWING OVA ?

THANKS
TOM

[adamcotton]

Apart from CITES restrictions (permits would be needed), I doubt it is viable to import birdwing ova since they hatch very quickly. Most Papilionid ova hatch in a week or so of being laid, maybe more at lower than normal temperatures, so it would be very difficult to import ova commercially.

I don't know if they are available anywhere, but importing pupae would be logistically possible.

Adam.

[kevinkk]

A while back there was a thread and someone was raising Ornithoptera euphorion somewhere in the EU. The post was on the Actias.de site,
and the usual questions were asked. There were pictures and updates, but I've never seen an ad for Ornithoptera livestock, however it was obtained,
and what permits were required, I have no Idea, if it was possible to do easily, I'd expect a number of persons would want a piece of that.

[Chuck]

On Ornithoptera:

1. As Adam said, they eggs hatch quickly. And, they need to be kept warm (not a 14 hour flight in airline baggage.)

2. The larvae kills the host stalk. That makes them a real PITA to breed in numbers or continuously, when they keep killing the host plant.

3. From the director at a US butterfly zoo: (1) the pupae come from Australia (2) no import of ovae, (3) the paperwork to get Ornithoptera pupae is horrible, and the oversight is even worse.

The zoo director inferred to me that Ornithoptera just weren't worth the extra effort. That said, they were the highlight to me; I've seen enough bloody morphos.

Another zoo director was telling me that (USFWS? USDA? forgot which) had an explicit rule no raising larvae, their butterflies had to come in as pupae. The inspectors looked for larvae free within the enclosure, which is a no-no. I looked over his shoulder and saw numerous morpho larvae, to which he shrugged.

Laws aside, clearly Ornithoptera need a large, warm, and humid flight cage. That rules out most of USA unless one has a million bucks to blow. As I'd noted, keeping enough foodplant growing for even a couple dozen larvae would consume substantial space and constant re-propogation. Further, while euphorion and urvilleanus are tolerant of civilization, oddly victoriae, for unknown reasons, avoids any kind of disturbance. How that would impact breeding in a US operation is unknown.

[eurytides]

I remember that thread on actias.de. I am doubtful this was done legally. The larvae were in plastic tubs with A. macrophylla cuttings.

[kevinkk]

I remember that thread on actias.de. I am doubtful this was done legally. The larvae were in plastic tubs with A. macrophylla cuttings.

In any event, it was interesting, the breeder did claim they had proper permits, but did not elaborate. There was only a couple larva
pictured as well.

I've spoken with someone here in the USA that claims to have a livestock importation permit for tropical butterflies, sounded like more work
than it would be worth without a substantial expenditure. All you're going to end up with are commonly farmed species from the tropics that
are going to need special shipping, not that it wouldn't be fun, but most of the ads I see for live tropical butterfly pupa want to sell in bulk
and not just a one off.

[Chuck]

Livestock importers are limited to serving the butterfly zoos. I suppose they could get a permit to import for scientific study, but not for selling on-offs to citizen scientists.

Anyone can get the license, it's just time and money. Apply and start complying, or send some cash to your well-connected politician to grease the path.

Keep in mind, an import licensee is just a business. Like all small business people discover, their passion-turned-business is at the end of the day nothing but paperwork, people problems, and overhead.

[daveuk]

The only time I saw Ornithoptera livestock advertised in the U.K. was in the 1994 catalogue from WorldWide Butterflies.
This was in the form of pupae. I have never seen ova or larvae of birdwings offered here.
I did not actually buy any of these pupae. Regret not doing so now of course !!

[bobw]

Many years ago I bought a couple of pairs of O. tithonus and O. goliath pupae from a show here, I can't remember who I bought them from. Unfortunately, all the resulting adults were crippled, although not all emerged.

[daveuk]

Many years ago I bought a couple of pairs of O. tithonus and O. goliath pupae from a show here, I can't remember who I bought them from. Unfortunately, all the resulting adults were crippled, although not all emerged.

Sounds like I did a wise thing in not buying any Bob.
Hope you didn't pay too much for them.

[bobw]

Sounds like I did a wise thing in not buying any Bob.
Hope you didn't pay too much for them.

I can't remember now, but they weren't cheap!

[mothman55]

DSCF2270 copy.JPG (770.48 KiB) Viewed 9091 times

The larvae kills the host stalk. That makes them a real PITA to breed in numbers or continuously, when they keep killing the host plant.

Chuck is right, the euphorian larvae once in final install will sometimes chew right through the stock of the tagala vine, killing all the leaves beyond the break. If done near the end of the vine, no great loss, but sometimes they will chew near the base of the plant, killing the entire plant. So you better have a few plants available if you hope to rear these.

[bobw]

Chuck is right, the euphorian larvae once in final install will sometimes chew right through the stock of the tagala vine, killing all the leaves beyond the break. If done near the end of the vine, no great loss, but sometimes they will chew near the base of the plant, killing the entire plant. So you better have a few plants available if you hope to rear these.

Parides are also well-known for this behaviour.

[adamcotton]

This behaviour is seen across many Troidini. The reason the late final instar larva chews through woody stems before pupation is that this stimulates a spurt in new growth by the Aristolochia plant just when the adult will emerge from the pupa. Thus the next generation 1st instar larvae will have fresh shoot tips to eat.

sometimes they will chew near the base of the plant, killing the entire plant.

Actually that's not quite accurate. Everything above the chew point will die, but the roots and stem below will not be affected.

Adam.

[Chuck]

Actually that's not quite accurate. Everything above the chew point will die, but the roots and stem below will not be affected.

Adam.

I knew when I wrote that they kill the host, somebody would correct me! Factually, Adam is correct. It's important to note though for captive breeding that Ornithoptera larvae can kill whatever is above what they chop through, and often that means a meter or more of good plant. If one has six larvae and six plants, there's a chance that when the next generation hatches from ovae there won't be enough to eat.

[Chuck]

For a sidebar question:

USFWS / USDA has allowed import of some Goliath beetles because the larvae are not herbivores. One would think then that the same rule would apply to Leps. Are there any interesting leps that are not herbivores?

[kevinkk]

A breeder was instrumental in getting the Goliath beetles legalized, I have tried 3 times now to raise them. It's not easy, rotted beetle pupa
smells terrible by the way. The reasoning was that the larva only eat protein, not vegetation, and the adults cannot damage trees, only being
able to feed on fruit or damaged trees.
Leps are never going to be deregulated because of agriculture, and the stupid things that have already purposely or accidently been introduced.

The comment about crippled butterflies caught me- Back in the 80's I brought back a bunch of Papilio pupa from the Dominican Republic, none
of them hatched properly, the sphinx pupa I brought back hatched ok. Someone told me it was a humidity issue, which sounds plausible. I personally
carried the pupa with me, they didn't get stuffed into baggage, so it wasn't shipping.

[eurytides]

For a sidebar question:

USFWS / USDA has allowed import of some Goliath beetles because the larvae are not herbivores. One would think then that the same rule would apply to Leps. Are there any interesting leps that are not herbivores?

Feniseca tarquinius comes to mind, but this is native to the US so importing is moot. There is another carnivorous species in Hawaii discovered a few years ago.

[FOXXDOC]

I'M AFRAID I WASN'T CLEAR.

I USED BIRDWINGS AS AN EXAMPLE. IT COULD BE ATLAS MOTHS ; ETC.
THE POINT IS I RAISED ALL TYPES OF LEPS FROM OTHER COUNTRIES ; IN THE 70'S BUT CAN'T ANYMORE. YOU CAN IN EUROPE.

ALL OF THE PLANTS IN MY LANDSCAPE ARE NON NATIVE. I CAN BUY THEM EVERYWHERE. WHY NOT LEPS ?

ECOLOGIC DAMAGE ? ISN'T THAT WHAT ALL THESE LANSCAPE PLANTS ARE DOING ?

DO WE EVER COMPLAIN ABOUT RESTRICTIONS AS A GROUP ?

I GUESS I'M JUST MUDDING THE WATER.

BEST

TOM

[Chuck]

Importation of livestock of anything is coming to a close. There are pythons and snakeheads in the Everglades, carp in the major rivers, and exotic plants choking out native plants. The aquarium fish hobby is about the only one little restricted, and even that is going to get hit.

The fact that one can't have pet spotted salamanders, but residential developers can plow down the ponds, is immaterial. Nobody cares.

Those that do care- about residential destruction, overbearing regulations, etc. are in a minority. And, they have no political power. Developers promise towns new revenue; USFWS is a self-surviving entity focused on growth and power, part of The Swamp. Homeowners pay taxes and vote; if they want non-native pretty plants, they get them. As a group, we have no such power to influence anything- you need money or political clout.

What is a group of disgruntled? Well, in 1775 in USA it was the Founding Fathers; shortly thereafter the Anti-Federalists. Those who wanted to limit government control to a minimum, and it was universally supported. Over time, those groups who wanted freedom were divided, now to the point that they're pitted against each other. Now, we have a vocal barely-minority who want big government, more government controls.

If you want to roll back restrictions, you have to work en bloc and support ALL groups who seek freedom- abortion, gun rights, water rights, logging, drilling, anti-speed limit, anti-smog control, internet freedom, sovereign citizens, insect collecting. But nobody does, so those freedoms have been chipped away.

** I pick on USFWS because they are the agency closest to "us." To be fair, they do have some great, talented, and dedicated people. But as you go up the food chain, those types of people become rarer. USDA is actually the more controlling agency for live animal importation- yes, USDA, the agency that 71% of their budget goes into providing free food.