InsectNet forum

1)Papilio ulysses ulysses. Pair. Ceram, Indonesia
2)Papilio ulysses autolycus. Pair. West Papua
3)Papilio ulysses joesa. Two pairs. Queensland, Australia. Top left male was self collected.

In the next few days I will have some news about P. ulysses, among other Papilio species. This species is split into three different species, but all three of the above subspecies still belong to P. ulysses.

Adam.

adamcotton wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:39 pm In the next few days I will have some news about P. ulysses, among other Papilio species. This species is split into three different species, but all three of the above subspecies still belong to P. ulysses.

Adam.

Sounds very interesting Adam. Look forward to hearing about it.

A'h yes, probably Indo-Australia's premier species in appearance and bold color. Always a knockout !

Superb examples...

Trehopr1 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 5:35 pm A'h yes, probably Indo-Australia's premier species in appearance and bold color. Always a knockout !

Superb examples...

Thanks again Trehopr.
It was a great thrill for me to observe & collect this species in the wild. A magnificent butterfly to see on the wing.

I was impressed that you collected the joesa male yourself, especially as it only has a small rub mark on the forewing, much better quality than I expected a wild caught specimen is likely to be, especially of an active species like this one.

Do tell us how you managed to catch it.

Adam.

adamcotton wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:39 pm In the next few days I will have some news about P. ulysses, among other Papilio species. This species is split into three different species, but all three of the above subspecies still belong to P. ulysses.

Adam.

Now you have my interest. Two new species, huh?

I suppose ssp orsippus and georgius are still uylysses?

adamcotton wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 7:58 pm I was impressed that you collected the joesa male yourself, especially as it only has a small rub mark on the forewing, much better quality than I expected a wild caught specimen is likely to be, especially of an active species like this one.

Do tell us how you managed to catch it.

Adam.

With a lure Adam. In this case the hindwing of a damaged specimen pinned to the leaf of a low growing shrub. Males fly high & fast in the treetops but are instantly drawn & fly down to investigate anything iridescent blue at ground level. You get one swipe & one swipe only. If you miss the butterfly sails off back to the treetops at speed. Luckily I did not damage the tails which I'm told is a common occurrence when netting this species. It is fairly common in that part of Australia. Even in suburban towns. My first & unforgettable sight of one was when it flew right in front of me in a busy street in Port Douglas.

Chuck wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 8:31 pm Now you have my interest. Two new species, huh?

I suppose ssp orsippus and georgius are still uylysses?

Yes, one in the west and one in the east, orsippus belongs to the eastern species separated from ulysses.

As for georgius there is no such subspecies. The correct name for this is rothschildianus Fruhstorfer, 1909. He specifically stated that georgius Rothschild, 1908 is a junior homonym and replaced the name with rothschildianus. If a name was declared as a junior homonym before 2000 then the name is permanently invalid. There are some specific exceptions in the current Code for names found to be homonyms after 1999.

Strangely most publications have continued to use the name georgius, but that does not change the fact that the correct name is rothschildianus.

Adam.

PS. I will post full details in a few days. I think almost everyone will be interested.

adamcotton wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 8:58 pm

Yes, one in the west and one in the east, orsippus belongs to the eastern species separated from ulysses.

Now that's cryptic! You didn't write "orsippus is the eastern species" you wrote "orsippus belongs to the eastern species." ?? AFAIK the only ssp east of rothschildianus is orsippus. So now there's more than one ssp of (whatever) east of rothchidianus ??

Very, very interesting. Good thing I don't label specimens with names.

nigerrimus from Bougainville, also a representative of the new eastern species ?

hewi wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 9:31 pm P. ulysses nigerrimus OS.jpgnigerrimus from Bougainville, also a representative of the new eastern species ?

Anything is possible, there are species found on Bougainville then going east skip a few islands, and there they are.

However, since orsippus occurs between Bougainville and "the new species" it's unlikely.

Chuck wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 9:07 pm Now that's cryptic! You didn't write "orsippus is the eastern species" you wrote "orsippus belongs to the eastern species." ?? AFAIK the only ssp east of rothschildianus is orsippus. So now there's more than one ssp of (whatever) east of rothchidianus ??

I didn't say east of rothschildianus, I said there is a western and eastern species, with true ulysses basically in the middle.

hewi wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 9:31 pm nigerrimus from Bougainville, also a representative of the new eastern species ?

Yes, but nigerrimus is a subjective synonym of orsippus.

Adam.

Adam, does Montrouzier's ulysses fit in amongst those 2 new described ulysses ?

I've always kind of thought that it wasn't quite a "true" ulysses as its generally
smaller size, somewhat diffrent markings and endemic home of New Caledonia
makes it unique.

Papilio montrouzieri has always been treated as a separate species from New Caledonia, it is not one of the species newly separated from Papilio ulysses.

Adam.

"Yes, but nigerrimus is a subjective synonym of orsippus.
Adam."

Hello Adam,
in your subspecies list of P. ulysses of 5 February 2019 you still listed nigerrimus as a valid subspecies. I had ordered all my ulysses according to this list.

adamcotton wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 8:58 pm PS. I will post full details in a few days. I think almost everyone will be interested.

Even though I'm exclusively into African butterflies, even I've become interested. You're keeping us in suspense!

hewi wrote: ↑Fri Mar 31, 2023 9:10 am "Yes, but nigerrimus is a subjective synonym of orsippus.
Adam."

Hello Adam,
in your subspecies list of P. ulysses of 5 February 2019 you still listed nigerrimus as a valid subspecies. I had ordered all my ulysses according to this list.

Since 2019 (~4 years ago) genomic analysis has matured substantially, and is being leveraged to define the systematics and taxonomy of many Leps. This is particularly true with Papilio, since it's such a popular group.

Further to that, the standardized results of genomic analysis are generally available, so new research can readily pull in sub-studies done by others.

I believe what Adam is inferring, or stating, is that a broad, yet detailed, genomic study of many Papilio has been completed and (1) the paper is being released soon and (2) nigerrimus was found to be synonymous with orsippus.

So the only question now is if Adam wants us to email him now to get on "The List" for distribution of the paper, or if it will be generally available online.

The wait is driving me nuts.

Chuck wrote: ↑Fri Mar 31, 2023 12:24 pm The wait is driving me nuts.

Sorry for all the delays. Please find details here:
viewtopic.php?t=930

Adam.

Chuck wrote: ↑Fri Mar 31, 2023 12:24 pm I believe what Adam is inferring, or stating, is that a broad, yet detailed, genomic study of many Papilio has been completed and (1) the paper is being released soon and (2) nigerrimus was found to be synonymous with orsippus.

The delays were basically because the publishers originally posted a pre-proof version (for sale) on their website, and I did not want to publicise something that was not the final version. After the final version was published I finished preparing a summary for you all, which you can find at the link in my previous post above.

The synonymy of nigerrimus is not a direct result of this paper. Note that it is perfectly acceptable to treat it as a separate subspecies to orsippus if you prefer, since it is a separate population.

For the purposes of this thread I am pasting the new listing of Papilio ulysses and closely related species here:

Papilio ulysses Linnaeus, 1758
ssp. ampelius Rothschild, 1908 (Type locality: Buru)
ssp. ambelauensis (Schäffler & Schmidbauer 2004) (Type locality: Ambelau Is.)
ssp. reikoae Kariya, 1988 (Type locality: Manipa Is.)
ssp. penelope (Dufek, Schäffler & Schmidbauer, 2005) (Type locality: Kelang Isl.)
ssp. ulysses Linnaeus, 1758 (Type locality: Asia [= Ambon])
ssp. scylla (Dufek, Schäffler & Schmidbauer, 2005) (Type locality: Saparua Isl.)
ssp. waterstradti Goode, 2012 (Type locality: Moluques, Ile Gebi [= Gebe Island])
ssp. dirce Jordan, 1909 (Type locality: Misol)
ssp. physkon Fruhstorfer, 1909 (Type locality: Waigiu)
ssp. calypso (Schäffler & Schmidbauer 2004) (Type locality: Salawati)
ssp. denticulatus Joicey & Talbot, 1916 (Type locality: Biak, Schouten Is.)
ssp. autolycus C. Felder & R. Felder, 1865 (Type locality: Nova Guinea: Dorey)
ssp. oxyartes Fruhstorfer, 1909 (Type locality: Aru Island)
ssp. melanotica Hagen, 1897 (Type locality: Dampier)
ssp. telemachus Montrouzier, 1856 (Type locality: Woodlark)
ssp. joesa Butler, 1869 (Type locality: Queensland)

Papilio orsippus Godman & Salvin, 1888
ssp. gabrielis Rothschild, 1898 (Type locality: St. Gabriel, Admiralty Islands)
ssp. kallinikos Fruhstorfer, 1903 (Type locality: Neu-Mecklenburg = Neu-Irland)
ssp. ambiguus Rothschild, 1895 (Type locality: New Britain)
ssp. orsippus Godman & Salvin, 1888 (Type locality: Solomon Islands, Aola in Guadalcanar Island)
ssp. rothschildianus Fruhstorfer, 1909 (Type locality: Solomon Islands: Guizo) [Replacement Name for georgius Rothschild, 1908]

Papilio telegonus C. Felder & R. Felder, 1860
ssp. dohertius Rothschild, 1898 (Type locality: Obi)
ssp. telegonus C. Felder & R. Felder, 1860 (Type locality: Batschian)
ssp. morotaicus Rothschild, 1908 (Type locality: Mira, Morty I. (= Morotai))

Adam.