Papilio glaucus (natural occurring genetic anomalies)
Papilio glaucus (natural occurring genetic anomalies)
Odd specimens like these can sometimes be encountered
in field. They are (one-of-a-kinds) and are revered and
coveted by collectors for being "wild captured" examples.
Their genetic anomalies show on their wings as blotches or
excessive melanism. They are DIFFRENT from gynandromorphs
which are more often (streaked) with "portions" of the opposite
sex present. True bi-lateral gynanders are "holy grails" of the
genetic odyssey.
So, here I offer a view of some "odd ones" which were part of
a large series of P. glaucus from a collection that was nearly
40 years in the making. Again, all "wild collected"; not bred.
in field. They are (one-of-a-kinds) and are revered and
coveted by collectors for being "wild captured" examples.
Their genetic anomalies show on their wings as blotches or
excessive melanism. They are DIFFRENT from gynandromorphs
which are more often (streaked) with "portions" of the opposite
sex present. True bi-lateral gynanders are "holy grails" of the
genetic odyssey.
So, here I offer a view of some "odd ones" which were part of
a large series of P. glaucus from a collection that was nearly
40 years in the making. Again, all "wild collected"; not bred.
Re: Papilio glaucus (natural occurring genetic anomalies)
Absolute beauties. All of them !!
Re: Papilio glaucus (natural occurring genetic anomalies)
Scriber's research has concluded that the species is prone to genetic changes due to environment, and that these changes can be hereditary. So it's not surprising that various "forms" and variations exist.
I caught two specimens in PA a couple years ago that I could not concretely ID, and several experts in the field all agreed that they were anomolies, freaks. Which didn't help my research at all. And over the course of the past couple years focusing on Tigers, I've caught several aberrations.
Overall, my research on Tigers has led me to call into question many of the morphological indicators commonly used to discern between taxa, and spring v. summer forms. The paper is written, but I'm waiting on DNA analysis.
The location for those pictured above is sadly not shared. It's likely they are from an area where differing (more or less) taxa collide. Where nominate glaucus is well distanced from any relatives or cryptics it tends to be morphologically "fixed", though certainly I have specimens from (for example) KY that don't fit the mold. But where taxa overlap, inclusive of cryptic populations, is where we get so many aberrations including the "smoky" form of the females. This is also true of the western Tiger species.
I caught two specimens in PA a couple years ago that I could not concretely ID, and several experts in the field all agreed that they were anomolies, freaks. Which didn't help my research at all. And over the course of the past couple years focusing on Tigers, I've caught several aberrations.
Overall, my research on Tigers has led me to call into question many of the morphological indicators commonly used to discern between taxa, and spring v. summer forms. The paper is written, but I'm waiting on DNA analysis.
The location for those pictured above is sadly not shared. It's likely they are from an area where differing (more or less) taxa collide. Where nominate glaucus is well distanced from any relatives or cryptics it tends to be morphologically "fixed", though certainly I have specimens from (for example) KY that don't fit the mold. But where taxa overlap, inclusive of cryptic populations, is where we get so many aberrations including the "smoky" form of the females. This is also true of the western Tiger species.
Re: Papilio glaucus (natural occurring genetic anomalies)
Hi Chuck,
All of the specimens which are pictured happened to have been collected in Austin,Ohio between May 21 thru
June 15 2013. About a 3 week time frame....
I found them in a drawer all pinned (in a column) with a header label bearing that information (as well as the specimens having it also).
Sorry, for not relaying that information in my post. The time was late evening when I posted the thread and I simply forgot to add that pertinent information in the process.
I do want to add that these are not my specimens. I inquired about purchasing them however, for now I was told they are not for sale.
If they had become mine I would have certainly re-spread certain ones better than they are presented.
There must have been something going on in that particular population (at that time) to produce that many nice oddities --- I would think.
All of the specimens which are pictured happened to have been collected in Austin,Ohio between May 21 thru
June 15 2013. About a 3 week time frame....
I found them in a drawer all pinned (in a column) with a header label bearing that information (as well as the specimens having it also).
Sorry, for not relaying that information in my post. The time was late evening when I posted the thread and I simply forgot to add that pertinent information in the process.
I do want to add that these are not my specimens. I inquired about purchasing them however, for now I was told they are not for sale.
If they had become mine I would have certainly re-spread certain ones better than they are presented.
There must have been something going on in that particular population (at that time) to produce that many nice oddities --- I would think.
Re: Papilio glaucus (natural occurring genetic anomalies)
In eastern USA, there are three recognized species: glaucus, appalachiensis, and canadensis. The range of none of them is well known. There is ssp maynardi- range also not well defined. There are also cryptic populations (probably recombinant hybrids like appalachiensis) and true hybrids.
The greatest proportion of aberrations is where two taxa overlap.
If you look at the "smoky" or "dusky" females, they tend to be along the Line of Southern Aggression where nominate glaucus and the all-yellow female forms collide. This line has been moving north. Right now, the hotspot appears to be north of Philadelphia, where the black form of the female has very recently been pushing northward.
Those shown above by Trehopr1 come from Austin, OH. This area is typically well within the nominate (dark female) range- EXCEPT note that it's not far off the Appalachian Mountains. The Line of Southern Aggression is not concrete; it waivers, it goes up and down with mountains. So these could be normally occurring abberrations, or resulting from collision between nominate glaucus and yellow-female, or appalachiensis. The proximity to the Appalachians leads me to believe they may be hybrids with some other taxon, recognized or otherwise.
But as previously noted, Scriber demonstrated that extreme weather can impact individuals AND their offspring. Ironically (or not) the area of the Line of Southern Aggression is ALSO the line of dramatic weather variation. So determining what caused a particular abberration (or series of) can be challenging, if not impossible.
What it all comes down to is if someone is going to seek abberrations, best to do it where two taxa meet; but given that we don't know the complete story of Tiger taxonomy, or the ranges of any of the "well known" species, good luck finding that line.
The greatest proportion of aberrations is where two taxa overlap.
If you look at the "smoky" or "dusky" females, they tend to be along the Line of Southern Aggression where nominate glaucus and the all-yellow female forms collide. This line has been moving north. Right now, the hotspot appears to be north of Philadelphia, where the black form of the female has very recently been pushing northward.
Those shown above by Trehopr1 come from Austin, OH. This area is typically well within the nominate (dark female) range- EXCEPT note that it's not far off the Appalachian Mountains. The Line of Southern Aggression is not concrete; it waivers, it goes up and down with mountains. So these could be normally occurring abberrations, or resulting from collision between nominate glaucus and yellow-female, or appalachiensis. The proximity to the Appalachians leads me to believe they may be hybrids with some other taxon, recognized or otherwise.
But as previously noted, Scriber demonstrated that extreme weather can impact individuals AND their offspring. Ironically (or not) the area of the Line of Southern Aggression is ALSO the line of dramatic weather variation. So determining what caused a particular abberration (or series of) can be challenging, if not impossible.
What it all comes down to is if someone is going to seek abberrations, best to do it where two taxa meet; but given that we don't know the complete story of Tiger taxonomy, or the ranges of any of the "well known" species, good luck finding that line.
- adamcotton
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Re: Papilio glaucus (natural occurring genetic anomalies)
Sorry for my ignorance, but what is the 'Line of Southern Aggression'? Is it something to do with the Civil War, or something biological?
Adam.
Adam.
Re: Papilio glaucus (natural occurring genetic anomalies)
I coined the "Line of Southern Aggression" for an odd boundary I found that is the northern most limit to many south eastern US species. Not just butterflies, I discovered- as I play with iNaturalist maps, I see that a vast quantity of moths, other insects, and plants also stop at this line.
Having not found anywhere this is documented, nor named, I coined it "Line of Southern Aggression" or sometimes "Northern Terminus of Southern Aggression" in honor of a Lepidopterist I greatly admire, Dr. Hyatt, who lives in The South.
It's the blue line. I did this in 2020, and subsequent to that, for some species the line has moved north, particularly by the eastern seaboard. Of course, different species (of whatever) vary here and there, but if you play with iNaturalist you'll see distribution maps that look like this over and over again.
It does map perhaps 70% to PARTS Scriber's Thermal Exclusion Zone, but it's sufficiently different enough (without going into great detail) that it should merit recognition on its own. It covers more area than Scriber's Zone, and frankly I don't always have an answer for why so many species just stop there (except it's cold.) Since somebody is going to ask, a number of said species' larval food plants do NOT stop there, so that doesn't fly.
Having not found anywhere this is documented, nor named, I coined it "Line of Southern Aggression" or sometimes "Northern Terminus of Southern Aggression" in honor of a Lepidopterist I greatly admire, Dr. Hyatt, who lives in The South.
It's the blue line. I did this in 2020, and subsequent to that, for some species the line has moved north, particularly by the eastern seaboard. Of course, different species (of whatever) vary here and there, but if you play with iNaturalist you'll see distribution maps that look like this over and over again.
It does map perhaps 70% to PARTS Scriber's Thermal Exclusion Zone, but it's sufficiently different enough (without going into great detail) that it should merit recognition on its own. It covers more area than Scriber's Zone, and frankly I don't always have an answer for why so many species just stop there (except it's cold.) Since somebody is going to ask, a number of said species' larval food plants do NOT stop there, so that doesn't fly.
- adamcotton
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Re: Papilio glaucus (natural occurring genetic anomalies)
Thanks for the very interesting explanation. Certainly there must be some factor affecting many different organisms. Presumably the shift in the line is yet another effect of climate change. Similar effects in distribution can be seen around the world, for instance some of the more tropical species of Papilio have gradually been moving further north in Japan.
Adam.
Adam.
Re: Papilio glaucus (natural occurring genetic anomalies)
There is another "line" if you will, actually a V, coming down from eastern Ontario/ western Quebec into western NY and most of Vermont, within which the typical Canadian species are found. This one though is no surprise, as it is comprised of tall, cold mountains.adamcotton wrote: ↑Sat Mar 11, 2023 9:05 am Thanks for the very interesting explanation. Certainly there must be some factor affecting many different organisms. Presumably the shift in the line is yet another effect of climate change. Similar effects in distribution can be seen around the world, for instance some of the more tropical species of Papilio have gradually been moving further north in Japan.
Adam.
So far as the Line of Southern Aggression, in Pennsylvania the topography is the same 50km on either side of the line. The only thing I can think of is that numerous species across multiple kingdoms cannot survive the temperature north of the Line of Southern Aggression. Scriber (melanism decline, 2020) has a map that shows a temperature zone that's cooler above the Line, though dips down south in the Appalachians- yet, many species' ranges also include that Appalachian dip (i.e., they live in the valleys as well as the mountains)- so one would think if they can handle the cold of the Appalachians south of the Line, they can handle the cold immediately to the north. So to my mind, it's an odd line.
But, as I noted, and Adam noted with Japan, species ranges are moving north in this area. iNaturalist records aren't that old, yet in that short period it's pretty clear that The Line is moving north.
For the purpose of finding aberrations and "smoky" Tigers though, the map above is probably good enough to get started. I'd love to have a dozen field workers along that line all summer surveying.
Re: Papilio glaucus (natural occurring genetic anomalies)
Love the tigers, especially naturally occurring anomalies/aberrants. Where I am just outside of Toronto, it's mostly glaucus with a few canadensis strays. But where I collect, further north in central Ontario, it's almost entirely canadensis, with a rare glaucous stray. We also get the odd MST in mid summer. I am always on the lookout for anything unusual, but find about 99% on the males to be cookie cutter. We do get the odd aberrant male, but I find more variation in the females. Generally the forewing stripes offer the major variations, and the thicker the better. Here are a few of mine, all caught in central Ontario between Buckhorn and Coe Hill, and all in June of various years.
Re: Papilio glaucus (natural occurring genetic anomalies)
And a couple of males, including the one in my avatar, from June 8, 2020.
Re: Papilio glaucus (natural occurring genetic anomalies)
In my area we get only the standard yellow and dark forms of glaucus, no "smoky" forms. Some of them are very large and could possibly be maynardi or glaucus/maynardi intergrades. From what I've read maynardi is restricted to Florida, but it's possible it could have spread to other Gulf coast or Atlantic coast states. Has anybody seen any data indicating indicating this?
Re: Papilio glaucus (natural occurring genetic anomalies)
Most sources cite central and southern Florida.58chevy wrote: ↑Sat Mar 11, 2023 5:51 pm In my area we get ... could possibly be maynardi or glaucus/maynardi intergrades. From what I've read maynardi is restricted to Florida, but it's possible it could have spread to other Gulf coast or Atlantic coast states. Has anybody seen any data indicating indicating this?
I have photos of a pair of Tigers from Alabama, just over the line from Pensacola. I took the photos, so have seen the specimens myself, and I have no doubt they are ssp maynardi. Not only are the largest Tigers I have ever seen, from anywhere, but they have that wonderful ochre color.
Ah, here it is. From August Schmitt. The foam it's on is 4.25" from a Cornell unit tray.
iNaturalist doesn't separate ssp. maynardi. And in looking just now, it seems there are several observations (with photos!) of larvae from a location many miles out to sea. Oh, iNaturalist, again? Stupid in, stupid out- participation awards. Besides, it's hard to tell from photos.
GBIF (which I've also found highly suspect and to be taken with a grain of salt) does show ssp maynardi from Texas; 2015 and from LepSec Season Summary, so I'm giving it some more faith that most sources. https://www.gbif.org/occurrence/2466537240
So this suggests that ssp. maynardi, or perhaps an unidentified taxon like maynardi, exists in eastern TX.
Re: Papilio glaucus (natural occurring genetic anomalies)
I have specimens of glaucus from coastal southern GA that are indistinguishable from my FL specimens. I think they are all referable to maynardi.
jh
jh
- mothman27
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Re: Papilio glaucus (natural occurring genetic anomalies)
Papilio glaucus and relatives.
One of my favorite self-collected specimens.
~~Tim
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Re: Papilio glaucus (natural occurring genetic anomalies)
Re: Striking aberrant P. canadensis,
From the old forum self collected...
https://archive.insectnet.com/thread/51 ... canadensis
John K.
From the old forum self collected...
https://archive.insectnet.com/thread/51 ... canadensis
John K.
Last edited by boghaunter1 on Mon Mar 13, 2023 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- mothman27
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Re: Papilio glaucus (natural occurring genetic anomalies)
I remember that one, it's crazy!boghaunter1 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 4:58 pm Re: Striking aberrant P. canadensis,
From the old forum self collected...
https://archive.insectnet.com/thread/51 ... canadensis
John K.
~~Tim
Re: Papilio glaucus (natural occurring genetic anomalies)
I would think ssp. maynardi could be easily found in any of the border counties of Georgia or Alabama. Insects don't recognize state borders and I would imagine that the environs in all of those counties are just like those of Florida. Something else ecological likely prevents the subspecies from going further inland.
I have collected some things in the far Southern counties of (Illinois) yet, beyond those counties they are not known. Likely, the northernmost reach of some of those species because of their food plant or some ecological barrier(s).
As for the occurrence of large tigers in southern Texas; well, maybe another distinct yet smaller population of it. Or, it could be that some of the large individuals collected just happen to be a few oversized examples that were taken. Only field work and additional DNA testing may sometime (down the road) answer that puzzle.
I have collected some things in the far Southern counties of (Illinois) yet, beyond those counties they are not known. Likely, the northernmost reach of some of those species because of their food plant or some ecological barrier(s).
As for the occurrence of large tigers in southern Texas; well, maybe another distinct yet smaller population of it. Or, it could be that some of the large individuals collected just happen to be a few oversized examples that were taken. Only field work and additional DNA testing may sometime (down the road) answer that puzzle.
Re: Papilio glaucus (natural occurring genetic anomalies)
Can someone tell me if there is a visual difference between glaucus and appalachiensis ?
Am I missing some subtlety in the wing markings ?
I have been scrutinizing Tim's representatives (back and forth) and I still can't tell anything....
Am I missing some subtlety in the wing markings ?
I have been scrutinizing Tim's representatives (back and forth) and I still can't tell anything....
Re: Papilio glaucus (natural occurring genetic anomalies)
The distinctive morphology on Tiger Swallowtails is on the verso. That's why I now set mine verso up.
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... ted_States
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