InsectNet forum

A friend who works at the Entomology Museum, Bangkok, asked me to post on the forum about the moth with the largest wingspan in the world. He was asked by a schoolboy on a trip to the museum, and would like to be able to give the correct answer. He realises that wingspan of a dead specimen depends on how it is spread.

As far as he has found out Coscinocera hercules should be the largest in wing area but other sources state that Thysania agrippina has the largest wingspan. He was surprised to read that T. agrippina could be larger so he asked me to post the question on Insectnet.

Adam.

I suppose your friend is correct.
T.agrippina is considered the largest Lepidoptera as per wingspan.
I have a specimen which only has 20cm but supposedly they are examples close to 30cm!

According to G. Beccaloni (2010), T. agrippina reaches a wingspan of 308 mm (record specimen in a private collection, Ontario), and C. hercules a wingspan of 290.2 (record specimen in the Queensland Museum, Brisbane). C. hercules has the largest wing area of any lepidopteran however, at 288 cm² (estimate made from the record specimen).

My friend asked me to say thank you for replies. He also pointed out that Gardiner (1982 - A Silkmoth Rearer's Handbook, 3rd Edition) on p. 126 states the size of Coscinocera hercules as 250-360 mm, although Gardiner doesn't say how this was measured. If that is a maximum 360 mm wingspan it would be wider than T. agrippina.

Adam.

adamcotton wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:25 am My friend asked me to say thank you for replies. He also pointed out that Gardiner (1982 - A Silkmoth Rearer's Handbook, 3rd Edition) on p. 126 states the size of Coscinocera hercules as 250-360 mm, although Gardiner doesn't say how this was measured. If that is a maximum 360 mm wingspan it would be wider than T. agrippina.

Adam.

The only way I can see C hercules measuring that span is if the wingtip-to-wingtip span was maximized by FW angles way down. In a way, it makes sense as the generally accepted method is with FW rear at 90 degrees, which is unnatural. I suppose that's why the more serious papers now measure FW along the leading edge.

Chuck wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 1:01 pm The only way I can see C hercules measuring that span is if the wingtip-to-wingtip span was maximized by FW angles way down.

Yes, it is quite likely that Gardiner's measurement was in a natural position, since his book is about rearing live silkmoths.

Chuck wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 1:01 pm I suppose that's why the more serious papers now measure FW along the leading edge.

The generally accepted measurement is from the joint at the base of the forewing to the farthest point at the apex in a straight line, not along the costal edge of the wing.

Adam.

Here are my largest C hercules & T agrippina together for comparison. Both specimens from the mid 1980s
PNG & Brazil respectively.

A very nice comparison photo of the two dave.
I was very fortunate to land a pair of C. hercules back in the early 1990s. Since that time I have never again seen the species offered here.

The female that I have (spread like yours) has a wing expanse of 216 mm. That is a far shy (short) of the 290 mm reported by the Queensland museum. Could you measure yours (tip to tip) and tell me where you're at in terms of millimeters ?

I think mine is a pretty decent sized female....

Trehopr1 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 6:18 pm A very nice comparison photo of the two dave.
I was very fortunate to land a pair of C. hercules back in the early 1990s. Since that time I have never again seen the species offered here.

The female that I have (spread like yours) has a wing expanse of 216 mm. That is a far shy (short) of the 290 mm reported by the Queensland museum. Could you measure yours (tip to tip) and tell me where you're at in terms of millimeters ?

I think mine is a pretty decent sized female....

Will measure my female tomorrow in daylight & let you know. Did not have time to visit the Queensland museum in Brisbane while I was there sadly.

Hello again,

From the 1982 book "The Guinness Book of Animal Facts & Feats", pg. 182. Quote...
"Chevalier Charles Oberthur, the French millionaire collector, once purchased a T. agrippina which measured an astonishing 360mm 14.17 in. across the wings, but the present whereabouts of this monster is not known. The Oberthur Collection of 1,140,000 butterflies & moths was sold in 1927 and 70 per cent of the specimens were acquired by the British Museum, but the superlative moth was not among them." Two other large specimens also mentioned in this book measured 304mm 11.97 (British Museum) & 281mm 11.06 in. (Dorman MUseum).

By the way, are there any biographical books on C.C. Oberthur? in English? I would love to find out more about him as he seems to have been in the same collecting league as W. Rothschild...

The above mentioned book is a really fascinating (& truly mind numbing collection!) of world record sized animals... each with it's own chapter: Mammals, Birds, Reptiles, Amphibians, Fishes, Echinodermata, Crustaceans, Arachnids, Insects (pgs 170-182), Centipedes & Millipedes, Segmented Worms, Molluscs, Cnidarians, & finally Prehistoric Animals. The book has a definite slant to British museum(s) records as expected. This book was published back in 1982 (252 pgs. total) & may be a bit dated, but is still, IMHO, one of the most interesting books I own. I haven't checked online, but it still may be available.

John K.

Hello John K.,
Thank you very much for posting that paragraph
listed in the book regarding the scanty information
available on that outstanding specimen once owned
by Oberthur.

To further back up the paragraph I believe I've found
an actual photograph of that exact specimen.

I have seen its photograph reproduced at least 2x in
Guinness record books. Once in a late 1970's edition
(posted here in my first photograph) with corresponding
information below the photo; and a second time in a
1985 (hardbound) edition with a (larger) picture and similar
information likewise noted.

1st Photo taken from late 1970's edition of Guinness:



2nd Photo taken from 1985 edition of Guinness:



My own personal thoughts on this mammoth specimen
are that Oberthur likely sold this specimen to someone
with money before his health went downhill. He was after
all a dealer on a big scale in his time.

It may still exist out there but, like rare, older automobiles
of low production or pedigree it has probably seen only 3 or
4 (owner/caretakers) since the Oberthur collection was sold
off and broken up in 1927.

And again, smart collectors REMAIN discreet about personal
"special things" which they have acquired; rather than advertise !

I remember the thysania agrippina from the John Powers collection (Ontario, Canada) was at the time listed by Guiness as the worlds biggest. It reportedly measured 308mm, a photo I found after goggling it. It was listed as 1934 Brazil, a female. He has since passed, but I believe his family still has it.

Thank you mothman55 for that wonderful head on photograph of the Guinness records specimen !

As far as I know that one still holds the official record in terms of size since no one has seen the original specimen of Oberthur's since it's disappearance from his collection.

Note that the forewings of this record Thysania are dropped a bit ( not at 90° to the thorax ) thus it gains few millimetres , I suppose the “correct” wingspan would be around 301-303mm which most likely giving it the largest anyway.
The specimen form Oberthur’s collection most likely is spread in Victorian style with forewings upper edge almost at 90° to the body which gives the extra few cm although it might be the largest specimen.

I totally agree with you Paul !

I see a big one on eBay now at 28.2cm from Peru. That's getting pretty close to the 30cm beasts, but starting bid is $300 US.

mothman55 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 7:26 pm I see a big one on eBay now at 28.2cm from Peru. That's getting pretty close to the 30cm beasts, but starting bid is $300 US.Screenshot 2023-02-10 at 2.16.24 PM.png

This one is actually about 24-25cm, false advertising.
Still a good size, definitely not worth $300

Indeed, someone has taken the liberty of spreading the
specimen (in an almost resting position) to maximise its
wing expanse. Certainly, not worth $300 asking price !

Though, the spreading job looks well executed and the
specimen also looks very good (quality-wise).

Does seem to be missing its mid-legs and long hind legs.
Only forelegs present.

Trehopr1 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 6:18 pm A very nice comparison photo of the two dave.
I was very fortunate to land a pair of C. hercules back in the early 1990s. Since that time I have never again seen the species offered here.

The female that I have (spread like yours) has a wing expanse of 216 mm. That is a far shy (short) of the 290 mm reported by the Queensland museum. Could you measure yours (tip to tip) and tell me where you're at in terms of millimeters ?

I think mine is a pretty decent sized female....

Never sure how to do this properly trehopr & have taken this with a phone. Looks like yours has a similar wingspan to mine. Maybe slighly bigger. Is your specimen Australian rather than from PNG like mine?

Hi Dave,
Very kind of you to take a picture of your specimens measurements. Yes, it appears yours is right there in size with mine.

Another of our forum members Panacanthus has a specimen which he showed that measures 225 mm across the spread wings.

My specimen is from Morobe province, PNG. Perhaps, the nominate from Australia is larger (on average) than those from PNG.