Where can I go?

Discussion on the legal aspects of insect specimen trading and collecting
777
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Where can I go?

Post by 777 »

I've never collected any insects from another country but I'm researching about it. Collecting abroad sounds like a nightmare from the threads I've read on the old forums, but I've heard some places are good for collecting. As someone who has no school/museum affiliation and collects as a hobby, what countries can I go to collect tropical insects?
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Re: Where can I go?

Post by Trehopr1 »

Let me start by saying that personally I am "out of the loop" these days on where to go anymore for exotic type collecting. A few SELECT places may still have no issues
with collecting insects for personal desire.

However, getting anywhere abroad is expensive with air flights, ground transportation to your place of stay, cabin or cottage rental, as well as supply needs or usage of supplies on hand.

French Guyana for example is well known and has several active places where collectors can go and stay for as long as your money holds out. They're pretty much full service providing for just about ALL needs with comfortable cabins, lighting setups, bait traps, decent food, and trips afield with transportation costs attached.

But again to keep in mind --- each and every item checked off on the list comes as a cost ! All of it is exclusive of your airfare costs.

If you do have the means above all (research) the laws of any given country regarding the export of anything that you collect. Also, make sure you will safely get your material back to the country you're living in so that it does not get confiscated by customs !!

All I can add lastly is to make sure that the country that you may go to is SAFE to go to because unfortunately this world has turned on its ear. There are many very questionable countries where kidnapping occurs, a drug trade is present, or rebel groups of one sort or another lurk in the shadows....
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Re: Where can I go?

Post by 58chevy »

Another option is to collect in parts of the United States that get tropical strays. These include southern Florida, southern Texas, and the mountains of southeast Arizona during monsoon season.
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Re: Where can I go?

Post by Jshuey »

As a USA-er - think Puerto Rico or the US Virgin Islands. Private lands require no permit. And no customs as you enter the mainland.

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Re: Where can I go?

Post by wollastoni »

In S America : French Guiana. You don't need any permits (just a custom declaration to fill online before arrival and a limit of 1000 specimens/person/year).
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Re: Where can I go?

Post by Chuck »

I vote French Guiana. As Wollastoni said, no permits, you have Lep-SME guides and places to stay.

There's Thailand as well, no permits, with some prohibitions on species. Still an all-around spectacular place with a lot of non-insects things that are must-experience.

I'm not a fan of Puerto Rico or USVI. Both, particularly USVI, are national parks (no collecting) where there remains forest; not all spots, but a significant percentage. Both would be best with a Lep guide, for which I have no recommendation.

Keep in mind if importing from FG or Thailand, one needs to be registered with USFWS and fill out a 4473 and get an inspection at one of several ports of entry (i.e., you just can fly direct back to Atlanta, it has to be a USFWS inspection port of entry.)


You could do monsoon season in southern AZ, it's like another country with species and volumes of insects coming to MV. It's right on the border, and even when I was there 20 years ago all the local collectors were armed. Then it got burned up in a big fire. It would be good to get an update.
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Re: Where can I go?

Post by Jshuey »

Cayenne, French Guiana, would be great if you could get there from the US. But you either have to island hop through the Caribbean, or fly to France. Not cheap..., or timely.

Amazingly, you can get to Georgetown, Guyana on direct flights from Miami, but permits rear their ugly head.

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Re: Where can I go?

Post by Paul K »

Jshuey wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 6:49 pm Cayenne, French Guiana, would be great if you could get there from the US. But you either have to island hop through the Caribbean, or fly to France. Not cheap..., or timely.

Amazingly, you can get to Georgetown, Guyana on direct flights from Miami, but permits rear their ugly head.

John
In 2004 there was a flight by Air France from Miami to Cayenne and the flight included three stops on each French Caribbean Islands. It was still very expansive Toronto to Cayenne via Miami $2K. I suppose they are not operating anymore ?
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Re: Where can I go?

Post by Jshuey »

In 2004 there was a flight by Air France from Miami to Cayenne and the flight included three stops on each French Caribbean Islands. It was still very expansive Toronto to Cayenne via Miami $2K. I suppose they are not operating anymore ?
At minimum, KAYAK could not find any flights from either Indianapolis or Miami.

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Re: Where can I go?

Post by wollastoni »

If you find a flight to French Guadeloupe or French Martinique, then you can easily join Cayenne by plane from there.
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Re: Where can I go?

Post by Chuck »

Miami to Martinique (FDF) then Martinique (FDF) to French Guiana (CAY)

I did it on Expedia, but it wouldn't show up if I MIA -> CAY, I had to find FDF to CAY, then backtrack MIA to FDF

Sorry, I think in airport codes.
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Re: Where can I go?

Post by Cassidinae »

Don't forget that there is a limit of 1000 insects in French Guiana! This can be caught in about 3 days! It's better with permission. I recommend contacting a local university or museum (in your country) for cooperation and confirmation for a permit to export more insects!
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Re: Where can I go?

Post by Cassidinae »

As others have written, Thailand is OK. Also probably still Laos, Vietnam, Cambodia. And most of Africa too (sometimes maybe with bribes) :)
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Re: Where can I go?

Post by kevinkk »

Ask this question on the Actias.de site, I've seen a number of persons who go to a place in Africa I believe in Cameroon? It's called Obout Village if I recall correctly. I see livestock offered from the village, and I've traded with someone who's traveled there. It's a different trip from the EU, just
straight down, not over the Atlantic.
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Re: Where can I go?

Post by wollastoni »

kevinkk wrote: Mon Feb 13, 2023 3:27 am Ask this question on the Actias.de site, I've seen a number of persons who go to a place in Africa I believe in Cameroon? It's called Obout Village if I recall correctly. I see livestock offered from the village, and I've traded with someone who's traveled there. It's a different trip from the EU, just
straight down, not over the Atlantic.
For those who want to see an ALF collecting report in Ebogo, Cameroon : https://www.lepidofrance.fr/ebogo-au-cameroun/
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Re: Where can I go?

Post by FOXXDOC »

permits ??? for whom. that country or usa ??

i think if you walk down a dirt road in say belize and collect specimens. no one will care. am i wrong ? ( technically )

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Re: Where can I go?

Post by Dynastinae »

FOXXDOC wrote: Thu Mar 09, 2023 8:10 pm permits ??? for whom. that country or usa ??

i think if you walk down a dirt road in say belize and collect specimens. no one will care. am i wrong ? ( technically )

TOM
I would not take that chance. Even on dirt road you can get in troubles.

Last March in Ecuador I was collecting beeltes with a friend on a dirt road near Loretto....no ones around. We were not in a National park...however, 30 minutes later, a police car arrived with 3 policemen....with no friendly faces.
They ask what we were doing and started to ask if we had any documents allowing us to collect there.
I had a collecting permit for Ecuador so I was able to show it to them. They took time to read it completly and even checked our passport number to see if they matches the one on the permit.
Everything was in order...and then we saw their faces with a smile for the first time. I even have a pictures with them and the permit in hands.

Close to the same thing happen to me a few years ago in Panama. Again police car...show them the permit ...all good.

One a different trip in Panama, they even called me at the airport just before before boarding. They had my bags and asked me to open them in front of security. I had all my boxes with beetles in them..with the collecting and exporting permit on top.

I would not imagine the troubles It will have been in those cases without the proper authorizations.

:)
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Re: Where can I go?

Post by wollastoni »

Indeed, permits are compulsory in many countries now.... don't go to jail for some bugs.

And ALL countries should help issue these permits to entomologists with some clear collecting rules to follow. (that's the main issue we face today with many countries issueing no permits).
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Re: Where can I go?

Post by Dynastinae »

wollastoni wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 8:49 am Indeed, permits are compulsory in many countries now.... don't go to jail for some bugs.

And ALL countries should help issue these permits to entomologists with some clear collecting rules to follow. (that's the main issue we face today with many countries issueing no permits).
You are 100% right. There is way to much problems with red tape everywhere.

You are using the term 'entomologist' in your post in a broad sense. We have collectors (entomologists) in this forums that are the real specialists of certain groups of insects. In most of the case, they are the one that bring new species, new localities, knowledge in systematic to the front.

However, most of the country governments that are asking for permit always prefer to deal with what they see as 'real entomologist'; i.e working in association with university, museum, research centers, etc. They will rarely issue a collecting permit if you are not part of this system, This is making the process for the other entomogists to get any kind of collecting permit (even worst exporting permit) a real challenge.

It is not totally impossible to get one....it is just most of the times very time consuming in terms of papers and regulations.

Martin
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Re: Where can I go?

Post by Chuck »

Dynastinae wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 6:06 pm
wollastoni wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 8:49 am Indeed, permits are compulsory in many countries now.... don't go to jail for some bugs. ...
However, most of the country governments that are asking for permit always prefer to deal with what they see as 'real entomologist'; i.e working in association with university, museum, research centers, etc. They will rarely issue a collecting permit if you are not part of this system, ...

It is not totally impossible to get one....it is just most of the times very time consuming in terms of papers and regulations.

Martin
Permitting by foreign countries is often dependent upon the applicant. If they know you, you're far more likely to get a permit. If they are in good relations with an affiliated institution, more likely.

References can help as well. So can politics- what VIPs do you know. A VIP friend, who is a casual entomologist, put a condition on a potential partnership in Indonesia that HE gets an export license- he got it.

Not all professionals nor all institutions are automatically granted permits. Some people & institutions have gotten the permit grantor (typically something like Dept. of Natural Resources) in hot water by exposing logging and other fraud. With the internet, it's very easy for them to look up publications and see if the applicant is likely to get them into trouble. I can give you two names you'd very well recognize and there's one country that if they ever show up again they will be incarcerated- after a good beating. If DNR doesn't know you, there's just way too much risk to their jobs that you'll do something that endangers their wellbeing.

Fact is, most countries' DNR folks are swamped. They don't have the massive manpower (even per capita- or per tree) that is enjoyed by USFWS. They don't have time to respond to your application, really, they don't.

And then there's the corruption tree. The guy who gets your email request first doesn't grant permits. He has to go up the chain of command. He, and the command chain, need to know that their palms will get greased. Don't denigrate foreign countries- I have an idea what it would cost to get a US permit to catch a federally protected species in a national park; the first politician in the chain charges $5000 to even discuss what you want, and it goes up from there.

Personal relationships are everything in many cultures. No relationship, no permit, not even going to look at it. They want to KNOW the person first. That's the same in business, licenses, etc. As I've been told, "if he wants a permit, tell him to come here and talk."
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