Paplio joanae or polyxenes?

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Chuck
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Paplio joanae or polyxenes?

Post by Chuck »

I have a specimen of Papilio that I've been unable to ascertain 100% what it is; location NE KY, August.


Image

The eyespot does touch the edge of the wing. It's a bad photo (sorry) but it is touching.

Image



There's a thread on P joanae on the archived forum, which has links to various resources including the original description. https://archive.insectnet.com/thread/97 ... lio-joanae A lot of what you'll see in that thread is "joanae" IDs that are debunked.

Here's P joanae (first photo) with the eyespot centered. https://butterfliesofamerica.com/papili ... cimens.htm Note that I have P polyxenes with the eyespot touching the edge.

Type location is Benton, MO in the Ozarks. Most resources cite that region is where the species is restricted. However, MPG shows locations along the KY/ IN and KY/OH borders. http://mothphotographersgroup.msstate.e ... odges=4160

So while I don't expect this specimen to be anything but polyxenes, I finally have time to ask.
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Re: Paplio joanae or polyxenes?

Post by adamcotton »

This could be an aberrant polyxenes or it may be something else. The connection from the black centre of the eye to the margin is rather ephemeral, certainly not well developed like a taxon such as bairdii.

The late Alex Grkovich posted on the TILS e-mail group several times many years ago about there being unusual polyxenes group populations in several locations, but I don't remember whether he gave any details or not.

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Re: Paplio joanae or polyxenes?

Post by eurytides »

Looks like polyxenes. I have seen specimens where the yellow/orange ring is thin and slightly incomplete and the pupil is relatively large. However, the pupil would still be circular. In contrast, the pupil in joanae is a bit flat and the long axis of the ellipsoid is horizontal.
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Re: Paplio joanae or polyxenes?

Post by Chuck »

Here's the previously mentioned joanae with a centered eyespot:

Image

And here's a polyxenes female from New York:

Image

In evaluating the taxonomic status of a specimen I often rely on publications, particularly the initial taxon description. In many cases I find that the original descriptions provide morphological identifiers that are not consistent across the taxon.
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Re: Paplio joanae or polyxenes?

Post by Trehopr1 »

I personally think this taxon remains a true anomaly of a kind. It seems that various members here (and in the past) have indeed questioned the validity of this as a species. Too much inconsistency is present here in terms of morphological characters and very subtle differences.

If the DNA of this (so-called species) is all that different from P. polyxenes one would expect it to exhibit some trait with reasonable consistency that would allow it to stand apart from polyxenes. However, perhaps this is nothing more than a localized population, a form, or perhaps even a subspecies more so....

I have no idea if anyone within the Papilionid specialist community has ever pursued the thought of reevaluating this species through more up-to-date scientific methods but, such endeavors (though painstaking) would likely settle the quandary of this matter once and for all.
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Re: Paplio joanae or polyxenes?

Post by eurytides »

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Re: Paplio joanae or polyxenes?

Post by eurytides »

Are we sure those are joanae in the pictures? The paper I linked above says joanae and polyxenes are indistinguishable by morphology alone. Certainly, the eyespot does not match any of the 4 type specimens.
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Re: Paplio joanae or polyxenes?

Post by adamcotton »

Trehopr1 wrote: Sat Dec 24, 2022 11:53 pm If the DNA of this (so-called species) is all that different from P. polyxenes one would expect it to exhibit some trait with reasonable consistency that would allow it to stand apart from polyxenes. However, perhaps this is nothing more than a localized population, a form, or perhaps even a subspecies more so....
The DNA of joanae is distinct from polyxenes, and is actually close to brevicauda, see https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... via%3Dihub

I can send a copy of the pdf for personal use if anyone wants one.

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Re: Paplio joanae or polyxenes?

Post by Chuck »

eurytides wrote: Sun Dec 25, 2022 7:39 am Are we sure those are joanae in the pictures? The paper I linked above says joanae and polyxenes are indistinguishable by morphology alone. Certainly, the eyespot does not match any of the 4 type specimens.
That is always a question: is a given specimen part of the subject taxon? In situations where two taxa may be in close proximity, and/or morphologically similar, how do you know which one it is? If one looks at appalachiensis for example, it flies with glaucus in some areas, and abuts canadensis somewhere. It would be easy to believe a particular specimen is of a given taxon, and be incorrect.

I'd mentioned in my draft paper you reviewed that it seems some type specimens are cherry picked to match the morphological differentiators, and as I think I said in an earlier post (if not, here it is) that in many cases type specimen morphological identifiers used in the original description don't describe ALL specimens in that taxon (and I suspect the authors know this, and rather ignore it.)

As far as joanae, and all the machaon/polyxenes etc., it had been my thought for decades to investigate this group, but with the likes of Emmel and Cotton (and others) being so much better versed it would have taken me years just to catch up. I have but two drawers of the group (minus polyxenes) and most have data labels, but no ID as I'd not bothered.

In the case of this specimen, I just assume it's polyxenes but what the heck, I tossed it out for discussion anyway. As we've seen just from a few images, some specimens claimed to be joanae have a floating eyespot, and some polyxenes do not, so that identifier is suspect.

Speyeria is a whole different game, I have no idea how those guys assign any taxon to anything morphologically. It's a genus I stay away from except to pin a specimen and put a data label on it.
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