Agrias butterflies

adamcotton · Post by **adamcotton** » Fri Dec 30, 2022 10:04 am

I should add that Agrias is a SUBJECTIVE synonym of Prepona (i.e. it is based on opinion, rather than the same type species), and the name Agrias is still available, so any new name published in Agrias is available as long as it complies with the other provisions of the Code.

When Agrias was declared a synonym of Prepona because it is internal to the tree of Prepona, the authors could have taken a different approach, splitting all the other branches of Prepona into different genera and keeping Agrias as a separate genus. That would have been more confusing than just treating Agrias within Prepona.

Adam.

wollastoni · Post by **wollastoni** » Fri Dec 30, 2022 12:01 pm

hewi wrote: ↑Thu Dec 29, 2022 12:54 pm and here a beautiful female variation of A.phalcidon phalcidon

P1000958.JPG

This female form augustus is just CRAZY ! Congrats Manfred, this is a breathtaking specimen !

wollastoni · Post by **wollastoni** » Fri Dec 30, 2022 12:10 pm

It seems many members are mixing the concept of genus with the concept of species.

Take Aglais io. You can call it Inachis io too. It is the same species and both name are « valid ».

Chuck · Post by **Chuck** » Fri Dec 30, 2022 2:42 pm

wollastoni wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 12:10 pm It seems many members are mixing the concept of genus with the concept of species.

Take Aglais io. You can call it Inachis io too. It is the same species and both name are « valid ».

I don't think that's the case.

It doesn't make sense, a genus should have one name, but it is what it is. I recall reading lately that ICZN doesn't recognize genus, which I have a hard time with, though if both Aglais and Inachis are synonymous, then there must be something behind this.

As taxonomy evolves, I can understand conflict, even within the expert community, concerning genus; case in point Prepona and Agrias; and Shapiro just took issue with this on some Pierids in LepSoc. Certainly, we poor nobodies would suffer as the professional communities slug out (and waffle) over which genus a given species is in.

Still, I don't understand why, under ICZN, the genus doesn't default to something (to one name), as does Species. IIRC subgenus is not recognized; either way Pterourus is still regularly used; wouldn't Agrias then rank like Pterourus? Whether recognized by ICZN or not, it has a place in science- perhaps then ICZN isn't properly adapting. I have no idea; I suppose overall I don't really care.

Perhaps I'm just a curmudgeon. I don't like change for the sake of bureaucracy. It's still a Gypsy Moth, it's still Amphion nessus, and it's still BMNH.

adamcotton · Post by **adamcotton** » Fri Dec 30, 2022 3:46 pm

Genus and subgenus are certainly recognised in the ICZN Code - they are known as Genus-group names, just as species and subspecies are recognised as Species-group names, and above the genus-group are Family-group names - superfamily, family, subfamily, tribe and subtribe. Everything above the family-group is not governed by the Code.

The Code does not distinguish between names within each group, because that is taxonomy, not nomenclature, and the Code does not govern taxonomy, only the names that taxonomists use. Taxonomists decide based on evidence whether a genus-group name should be treated as a genus, subgenus or a synonym of another genus group name. This is almost always subjective, so one taxonomist may have a different opinion to another.

Adam.

adamcotton · Post by **adamcotton** » Fri Dec 30, 2022 5:57 pm

Another issue that needs clarification and is often confused, including in this thread, is the difference between VALID and AVAILABLE names.

Under a particular classification (= hypothesis of the author) only one binomial (genus + species) name can be valid for any one species. The valid name for a species consists of the OLDEST available genus and species names in combination. Available names must have been correctly described according to the Code, and not been declared unavailable for any reason (mainly homonymy, or for species-group names, homonymy and being deemed infrasubspecific).

The point with particular regard to this Agrias thread is that Agrias and Prepona are BOTH available names and are BOTH valid names in classifications which treat them as separate genera. If Agrias is treated as belonging to genus Prepona then only the latter name is the valid genus name, because it is older; but Agrias is still an available name, and can be used as a subgenus name if required. So the species phalcidon could be called Prepona (Agrias) phalcidon, with the subgenus name placed in ( ) for clarity.

Adam.

Trehopr1 · Post by **Trehopr1** » Wed Mar 08, 2023 10:34 pm

Since this thread has gone silent for a bit I'll resurrect it
with a new addition/acquisition of mine. This honey was
3 months in waiting and each and every one I "land" is a
triumph to me. My holdings are small but, they are just
so incredibly marvelous !

I've never had a species with yellow in it --- much less one
out of Brazil !

hewi · Post by **hewi** » Thu Mar 09, 2023 1:23 pm

another yellow mauensis female

: pericles aus Auktion in Dijon.jpg (108.78 KiB) Viewed 5061 times

Trehopr1 · Post by **Trehopr1** » Wed Mar 15, 2023 2:20 am

Recently, I took the plunge and purchased (my 1st) two
"hybrid" Agrias specimens ever.... Its taken me a while
to commit because many price out rather highly (when
quite fabulous) and some enthusiasts have complained
of difficulty (oftentimes) in getting them to look right
whilst spreading them.

Some have even went on to say that they believe the
reason for the difficulty is due to formaldyhyde or
formalin being used in the dispatch of the fresh butterflies.

How much truth there is too this --- I cannot say. However,
perhaps things have changed-up a bit since some 3 years ago
(or so) when the market for "hybrid" Agrias really began to
pick-up steam.

I was completely successful with my 2 specimens. The smaller
of the two required 3 days in the relaxer; the larger 4 days. I
carefully moved the forewings back-forth each day and when
ready to set I placed 2 cross-pins underneath each body so they
wouldn't slip too low into the groove of the board. The board
grooves were a little wider than each body. NO hot water was
injected as I felt it was not necessary for either of mine.

They spread smoothly for me and things went "strangely well"
despite all the rumblings I've heard.... Maybe I just had beginners
luck !

Anyway, here's the first one off the board.
There are certainly more DRAMATIC ones but, hey its a start !

I can't say that I'll dabble any too much in these because the
(really great ones) are still kind of expensive and a particularly
tough specimen can be "deflating" for even an experianced enthusiast.

So, only every (now and again) --- if the price is right I'll give
another one a go !