old specimen Armandia lidderdaleii

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joachim
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old specimen Armandia lidderdaleii

Post by joachim »

This I obtained some time ago. It is from the 50´s or sixt`s. Armandia lidderdaleii
I consider to sell it but selling might be illegaal through it is an old specimen. What do you all think?
https://e1.pcloud.link/publink/show?cod ... lr28rvsIQk
https://e1.pcloud.link/publink/show?cod ... MRPzBYpljV
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Re: old specimen Armandia lidderdaleii

Post by adamcotton »

This is Bhutanitis lidderdalii (note spelling) which is listed on CITES II. Armandia is an unavailable genus name. You can sell it within the EU, but may need proof of origin, such as a receipt of purchase. You certainly cannot sell it or give it away to someone in any country outside the EU.

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Re: old specimen Armandia lidderdaleii

Post by radusho »

Cant sell it within EU without proper paper work either. And since I assume there is no label, it is impossible to verify the age of the specimen thus impossible to obtain rhe papers and legalize it.
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Re: old specimen Armandia lidderdaleii

Post by livingplanet3 »

When a collector has a legally problematic specimen such as this, and is therefore unable to sell it, but needs to dispose of it for whatever reason, how do they go about doing so? Donation to a museum, university, or fellow collector within their own country, perhaps?
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Re: old specimen Armandia lidderdaleii

Post by Chuck »

The answer lies largely in the analysis of the post on CITES in the Legal section. I’m without a laptop and typing on my phone. Since the analysis is in English, and Joachims primary language is Deutsch, I’ll provide guidance when I’m home and on a computer.
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Re: old specimen Armandia lidderdaleii

Post by adamcotton »

Chuck's comprehensive posts on CITES may not answer the problems which result from the separate EU laws ratifying and expanding on CITES regulations within the EU.

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Re: old specimen Armandia lidderdaleii

Post by daveuk »

Not completely sure on where we are with CITIES here in the U.K. since our break with the E.U. I am aware that all non CITIES butterflies I now purchase from outside the U.K. automatically have 20% tax(VAT) added to the cost of their purchase. This did not happen while we were in the E.U.
This along with a falling pound have suddenly made things much more expensive here for now when purchasing butterflies from abroad.
Out of interest I am attaching photos of a catalogue from Worldwide Butterflies here in the U.K. from Feb 1994. Bhutanitis lidderdalii from India offered papered (as Armandia) for £8.00. Less than thirty years later I saw an Indian male specimen offered on line not so long ago for $1,000. From memory no mention made of availability of CITIES papers for that specimen. Murky waters.
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Re: old specimen Armandia lidderdaleii

Post by Miguel »

Now you have to pay for everything that comes from outside the EU, even if it comes as gift that It supposes that doesn't have a commercial value.
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Re: old specimen Armandia lidderdaleii

Post by daveuk »

Miguel wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 2:06 pm Now you have to pay for everything that comes from outside the EU, even if it comes as gift that It supposes that doesn't have a commercial value.
I also have to pay tax on items that come from the E.U. too . Now that we in the U.K. are no longer part of it.
I have a parcel on the way from Germany now which I have paid 20% VAT on.
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Re: old specimen Armandia lidderdaleii

Post by wollastoni »

Yeap another achievement of Brexit... same here when I buy from a UK seller...
+ it is a big issue for UK Ornitho collectors now. For example, they can't bid on French Auction Ornithoptera anymore as they can't import them to the UK. (the CIC permit from the French authorities is valid within the EU only).
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Re: old specimen Armandia lidderdaleii

Post by wollastoni »

Miguel wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 2:06 pm Now you have to pay for everything that comes from outside the EU, even if it comes as gift that It supposes that doesn't have a commercial value.
Ask your seller to put a €10 value. The Vat will be 2 euros and most of the time they don't bother claiming it.
If no value is entered (gift), then they may charge a fixed fee around 15/20€ depending of your country.
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Re: old specimen Armandia lidderdaleii

Post by daveuk »

wollastoni wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:25 pm Yeap another achievement of Brexit... same here when I buy from a UK seller...
+ it is a big issue for UK Ornitho collectors now. For example, they can't bid on French Auction Ornithoptera anymore as they can't import them to the UK. (the CIC permit from the French authorities is valid within the EU only).
Did not know this worked both ways Olivier. Seems to me to be a complete governmental scam here.
I have not bought any CIITIES 2 listed specimens since Brexit from any sellers abroad both inside or outside the E.U.
I don't think it's now possible for anyone living here now sadly.
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Re: old specimen Armandia lidderdaleii

Post by Miguel »

wollastoni wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:26 pm
Miguel wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 2:06 pm Now you have to pay for everything that comes from outside the EU, even if it comes as gift that It supposes that doesn't have a commercial value.
Ask your seller to put a €10 value. The Vat will be 2 euros and most of the time they don't bother claiming it.
If no value is entered (gift), then they may charge a fixed fee around 15/20€ depending of your country.
The last parcel I received was sent from Russia,I paid 5€ for taxes,If I receive something from Japan I use to pay 6-7 €.
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Re: old specimen Armandia lidderdaleii

Post by Chuck »

To start, CITES is the foundational authority on this species.

See the post titled "TRADE IN DEAD CITES BUGS ONCE IMPORTED" in the thread on CITES.

That said, note just above that post Rushido says it doesn't matter in EU. That is not true if the country is a signatory, though it may not be enforced.

More likely, as Adam states, EU or each country may have an additional set of laws, and that is what you need to discover. Personally, I find anecdotal posts to be beyond useless, so perhaps a member can actually cite the law(s).
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Re: old specimen Armandia lidderdaleii

Post by daveuk »

I just prefer to avoid purchasing any species covered by CITIES now.
I have no wish to currently sell any of the ones I have aquired over time. If the need should arise at any time in the future I will check with relevant authorities here in the U.K. to get an up to date picture on where I stand legally on that.
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Re: old specimen Armandia lidderdaleii

Post by livingplanet3 »

Due to commercial farming for export, a number of Ornithoptera species have now become so readily available here in the US that some dealers are just cutting up their imperfect specimens and selling the wings for use in crafting projects. I saw some listings just the other day, for piles of loose O. croesus wings. Even A1, specimen grade examples of Ornithoptera species such as croesus, priamus, and goliath are quite affordable in the US these days.
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