InsectNet forum

This grand species of Papilio has always been one
of my consumate favorites. It is large and well, those
wing extentions (tails) speak for themselves !

Adam remarked that this species along with P. maraho
are the only species featuring 2 veins supporting the
extended wing.

This (form) of P. elwesi I have been told is much
less seen in collections than the nominate.

My specimen is from Ching Mai, China.

A while back the Chinese were selling these in lots of 5, I bought a few, very similar to maraho.

I am surprised that such a large and flamboyant species of butterfly like this would be sold in (lots). Seems like most often cheap, common species usually used in framework are sold in lots.

I do know that for years some of the commonly bred species of Morpho (also used in framework and jewelry) sold in lots as well and they were surprisingly affordable. However during these last maybe 5 years or less the pricing on those has jumped up dramatically and now buying Morpho's (in lots) of any kind is hardly the bargain it once was.

This specimen only set me back $35 and I think that was reasonable for such a extravagant species. I have an example of the nominate (as well) which I got for $5 less then this one.

I remember seeing P. elwesi in several butterfly books over the years but, it took a long while to finally get my first one. At least it came considerably cheaper than most of my other collection "highlights".

I corrected the spelling of cavaleriei Le Cerf, 1923. It is also worth pointing out that this is not a valid subspecies, but is a form which occurs across the range of Papilio elwesi which has no subspecies. There is some controversy whether maraho is a separate species or a subspecies of Papilio elwesi. Genetically they are very close, but both Chinese and Taiwanese authors separate them as species.

Adam.

Trehopr1 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 13, 2022 7:42 pm
My specimen is from Ching Mai, China.

Is that Chengmai County, Hainan? @adam

As far as I know P. elwesi does not occur in Hainan. It is not listed in Gu & Chen (1997) Butterflies in Hainan Island.

I could not find Ching Mai in http://www.fallingrain.com/world/ or on a search in the Fuzzy Gazetteer http://isodp.hof-university.de/fuzzyg/query/ .

Adam.

I can't find Ching Mai anywhere except the aforementioned county.

What is the range of P elwesi? A number of readily available sources cite "China and Vietnam" though iNaturalist shows only China records.

Dare I think the data "Ching Mai, China" comes from transit through Chiang Mai, Thailand but sourced from somewhere in China? I was just interested in the location, as I'd never heard of Ching Mai, China. Not to critique the data, I have seen a lidderdali that is pre CITES but only "India" grrrrrr. And we've hashed through the Bulolo PNG "clearing house" labels before.

Chuck wrote: ↑Wed Sep 14, 2022 1:49 pm What is the range of P elwesi? A number of readily available sources cite "China and Vietnam" though iNaturalist shows only China records.

P. elwesi is found from Sichuan eastwards through central China to the east coast, at least as far north as Jiangsu. The southernmost point in its distribution appears to be Ha Giang, northernmost Vietnam.

Here is a photo of my specimen from Ha Giang, April 2006.


Adam.

Hello Adam,
Thank you for looking over my post of this species and for letting us know that this is merely a (form) and not a subspecies of this butterfly !

I have duly made that notation in my post now and have corrected it.

The location data on my specimen is as I have spelled it and it does have the same month of capture (as yours) but, a different year --- April 2010.

I must admit that I found the location data sounding all too similar to the location where you live in Thailand.

All (we) as collectors have is the data provided to us on the specimens we acquire. I know some of the places that are frequently used for data are actually (hubs) where dealer activity of the region transpires. The specimen itself may have been collected many kilometers away or even a country away but that location is what is given (perhaps to hide the actual locality for some reason).

Anyway, this is one of the really great Papilio species of the world and I just wanted to make some mention of it do to its flamboyant appearance.

The lots of 5 were not expensive, $30 per lot if memory serves but it soon dried up, nowhere to be seen now.

It occurred to me that in my youth many Chinese locations were written with "ch" but now with "j". And it's common in English to split names (e.g., Viet Nam rather than Vietnam.)

There is a jingmai in Lancang county in Yunnan. This is closer to Laos than Vietnam. I don't know if elwesi occurs in SW Yunnan or not. Or perhaps it's another similar location name; there's also a jingmha.

Thank you very much chuck for your detective work !

I think I will make an additional label and put it on the pin with the specimen; spelling it as (Jingmai, China) so that way anyone getting this specimen down the road will have a more accurate location.

No, P. elwesi is not present in Lancang County, that's in SW Yunnan near the Burmese border.

Unfortunately Chinese data can be lacking in precision, sometimes completely inaccurate or even fabricated. Of course if you obtain the specimen from someone who bought it from someone else there is no chance to query the locality.

Adam.

Well, I guess I'll just leave the data alone.