Page 3 of 6

Re: Tiger Swallowtails of NY: Finger Lakes, Part II

Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2022 10:58 am
by adamcotton
Chuck wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 7:46 pm Then I'd have to give them all away post haste! Oh no!
There is absolutely no obligation for you to give paratypes away at all. Obviously the single specimen designated as the holotype SHOULD be donated to a museum if it isn't already housed in one, but there is actually no obligation to do so. If the holotype is stated to be housed in your own or someone else's private collection, as long as the precise location (address of the author or owner of the specimen) of that collection is stated somewhere in the original description (OD) then the description is Code compliant in this respect. Most authors who describe a new species/subspecies with a holotype in a private collection state that the holotype, currently in a stated private collection, WILL BE deposited in XXX museum. The Code only mandates that the location of the holotype OR the location where it will be deposited in future be included in the work. If at any future date the holotype is actually deposited elsewhere, or not deposited in a museum at all, that does not make the name unavailable. The current Code recommends that the holotype be deposited in an institution, but it is not mandatory.

The more paratypes you include in the OD the better. These should be labelled with at least the word 'paratype' along with the taxon name (similarly the holotype should be labelled as such). There is absolutely no obligation to give those specimens to anyone or any institution. The purpose of paratypes is to give a status to specimens that the author of the taxon believed to belong to the same taxon as the holotype when examining them before writing the OD, so that in future they can be used as examples of the author's opinion. If for whatever reason the holotype is destroyed some time in future then ONE of these paratypes can be chosen as a replacement 'name-bearing type specimen' (the neotype) for the lost holotype, if necessary. If there are no paratypes which actually represent the same taxon as the lost holotype then a a new specimen from outside the type series MAY have to be designated as a replacement specimen for that holotype if ABSOLUTELY necessary, according to strict restrictions in the Code. Also it is worth noting that, if subsequently some or all of the paratypes are shown to belong to a different taxon, it has absolutely no effect on the name or the identity of the taxon to which the name belongs. The name is only tied to the name-bearing type (holotype or neotype) and not to the paratypes. The holotype of a subsequent taxon can at the same time be a paratype of an older taxon from which it is shown to be different.

In the case of old descriptions where a series of specimens was listed or can be recognised as part of the type series, but no holotype was designated in the OD, then ALL of these specimens are syntypes, and all of them have equal name-bearing status. In new ODs after 1999 a series (2 or more) syntypes may be designated instead of a holotype and paratypes for whatever reason, although this is not recommended and normally no-one does so without a particular reason. If at a future time it is found that these syntypes actually comprise more than one taxon one of the syntypes will be chosen as the lectotype in order to fix the name to a particular taxon. The remaining syntypes then become paralectotypes, which have similar status to paratypes.

Adam.

Re: Tiger Swallowtails of NY: Finger Lakes, Part II

Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2022 11:01 am
by adamcotton
adamcotton wrote: Sat Nov 12, 2022 10:58 am The current Code recommends that the holotype be deposited in an institution, but it is not mandatory.
Just to be clear, I am NOT recommending that people describe species/subspecies and keep the holotype in their private collection, I am just explaining that it is not forbidden to do so.

Adam.

Re: Tiger Swallowtails of NY: Finger Lakes, Part II

Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2022 3:10 pm
by Chuck
Need some input, please.

I've finished a 20 page paper on Tiger Swallowtails of the Finger Lakes region of NY, which is largely based on my 2020-2022 field work. The problem is, my observations are best summarized as "inconclusive." The DNA analysis, which by default is now the sole authority, is at best months away.

Do I bother to publish it?

Re: Tiger Swallowtails of NY: Finger Lakes, Part II

Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2022 3:33 pm
by Jshuey
Chuck wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 3:10 pm Need some input, please.

I've finished a 20 page paper on Tiger Swallowtails of the Finger Lakes region of NY, which is largely based on my 2020-2022 field work. The problem is, my observations are best summarized as "inconclusive." The DNA analysis, which by default is now the sole authority, is at best months away.

Do I bother to publish it?

Do you have someone that can help you publish the paper? Way back when, I remember Paul Ehrlich giving sage advice to young wannabees (like me at the time) that you should always ask a knowledgeable "friend" to provide an honest critique before you submit any paper. You need someone who understands the issue at hand, who really wants to help you, and then you need to respect and take their advice.

Because when you get to the anonymous reviewer stage, it can be brutal...

John

Re: Tiger Swallowtails of NY: Finger Lakes, Part II

Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2022 3:36 pm
by Chuck
Thanks John, it's been through one peer review, and I can draw on others.

The question though if it's of any value to publish something without much in the way of a conclusion, particularly when said conclusion is likely within six months.

It has some value in that my observations are new (unpublished, or unrecognized) and some disagree with past publications...but still, no conclusion.

Re: Tiger Swallowtails of NY: Finger Lakes, Part II

Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2022 7:58 pm
by eurytides
Hey Chuck, my 2 cents is to wait. Like I said before, actual reviewers will be more nitpicky than me! Many times, it’s not necessary to have something conclusive in order to publish. You can publish anything that’s new. However, your case is a bit different. It’s not that you have completed one project and the next one is years away and being completed by a separate research group. Your results are part of a larger collaboration and the DNA results aren’t like 5 years away. You certainly can publish now but since the paper isn’t as strong without the DNA work, you might not get it into the best possible journal. If you wait 6-12 months for Julian, then you will have a “complete package” which can be submitted to a top tier journal. Ultimately it will be your decision, but my advice is to wait for the big fish.

Re: Tiger Swallowtails of NY: Finger Lakes, Part II

Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2023 10:45 pm
by Chuck
Well, I'm still waiting on genetic analysis of 2022 Tiger Swallowtails. So I thought in the mean time to share a few images

Comparison of Papilio canadensis (NY) left, and Papilio glaucus (KY) right.

Image



Left to Right: appalachiensis (WV), canadensis (NY), glaucus (KY), and MST / Late Flight (NY)

Image



Variation: two glaucus from KY, captured same field within an hour of each other

Image

Re: Tiger Swallowtails of NY: Finger Lakes, Part II

Posted: Tue May 30, 2023 5:58 pm
by Chuck
2023, here we go again. I figured I'd keep notes here, just in case it ever helps someone.

The batch of Finger Lakes Tigers dropped off at UK last November for genetic analysis still sit frozen. Since there's no funding (grant, etc.) for this, it would have to be a side job. So seven months later, nothing. I may be out in the field in 2023 for nothing, and it's pretty disheartening.

2023 work started with a trip to Carnegie MNH. It wasn't about Tigers, but a quick on-the-way-out-the-door look at the Tigers was intriguing; a nice black female gynandromorph; several wild-capture Insufficient Scale Quota (ISQ; Perlman) which demonstrated my ISQ was not even close to being the first wild capture; and several other specimens that made me wonder...

Side trips to Huntsville, San Antonio, and KY yielded no captures. Also, without arguing about when Spring is in TX, in all locations the Tigers all acted like our Spring Tigers- not nectaring, just blasting along at full speed. It seems consistent with Spring brood.

The first sighting in Finger Lakes in 2023 was in Wayne Co: Marion, 21 May late afternoon following recovery from a cold front.

Second sighting was Ontario Co. E. Victor, 26 May.

Subsequent (today), three in one hour Ontario Co., E. Victor, 30 May.

Thus far, no canadensis have been observed on the Lake Ontario (Wayne Co.) shoreline. My few previous captures have all been in May, but this year I've not even seen one.

In my mind, I've divided the earliest mid-May Tigers in Ontario Co. as potentially canadensis. However, not a one seen. And since the first I saw in Ontario County was 26 May, well that puts it into Spring Form timeframe, approximately. May was horrible weather, so who knows what happened to the Tigers.

As always, it's "sightings" not captures. Usually by the end of May they'd be nectaring on Lilac, but I haven't observed a single Tiger nectaring on anything, just flying from somewhere to somewhere else, and in a hurry.

........

Coming back from today's field trip, I'm just not into it. More days out sweating, blood pressure pounding, have to shower afterwards and check for ticks. I think of last year- something like 40 days before a capture. Ugh. Year four of this study has barely started and it's already old.

Re: Tiger Swallowtails of NY: Finger Lakes, Part II

Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2023 12:20 pm
by Chuck
Just got back from four days in Huntsville, AL...what a waste. An amazing lack of Leps seen.

I looked at hilltops for appalachiensis; nothing. So went looking for glaucus- valleys, suburban gardens, river edges, farmland, you name it. Nothing.

In fact, I saw maybe seven species of butterflies, and less than 100 butterflies in total. ??????? I saw zero Papilio.


@jhyatt @jshuey One odd observation: at a creekside near a forest, with poor lighting (cloudy, shade) I saw what I'm 90% certain was a Lycaenid, but I suppose it could have been a skipper. It was dark (grey/ brown), and acted more like a Lycaenid; when at rest wings were over the body. The odd thing was that it repeatedly dipped it's abdomen into the creek as it flitted around. It was 90F+ and there had been no rain for a while, so I wonder if this was to get water and/or cool off?

Re: Tiger Swallowtails of NY: Finger Lakes, Part II

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2023 12:44 pm
by Chuck
I'm going to see how using a running field report works rather than a personal journal.

Last week in western NY the entire place was smogged out by the Quebec wildfires. It was also cool. This week (Jun 12-17) will be cool with occasional heavy rains. I've not seen a Tiger in Upstate NY since 30 May.

This is the third June in a row that's cold and wet. 2022 at least I saw some Tigers on sunny days.

2021 was a washout, and I saw no Tigers in June until the very last days of the month. At the time, I attributed the absence of Tigers to a bimodal emergence, but June 2022 refuted that with a slow uptake in population over time. So I can see how weather patterns can create a false impression of emergence patterns.

Re: Tiger Swallowtails of NY: Finger Lakes, Part II

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2023 8:33 pm
by mothman55
It has been an odd year in central Ontario for the tiger swallowtail (P. canadensis primarily). The extreme hot weather for a week in early April followed by cold, then another few days of extreme heat the latter part of May started the emergences in this area. Saw lots of male puddlers toward the end of May, then again some cooler weather in early June, and more fresh tigers the past few days. The early lilacs are long since dead, and the late lilacs are just now coming into bloom. And now that we have cooler temps again for a few days, I expect to see next to nothing. Hoping the late lilacs will still have some blooms once it warms later in the week and I expect the females will be on the wing. Most years the canadensis peaks about the same time as the late lilacs, but this year I think with the temperature ups and downs the emergences may be more spread out, as I have seen many fresh males in late May and am still seeing fresh tigers here almost 2 weeks later, when I normally would be seeing more wear.

I have caught 3 MST in the past 2 years here, and will be on the lookout for more this year once the canadensis are gone. Glaucus are further south (Toronto/Hamilton) and rarely if ever seen around here (the Kawartha Lakes).

Re: Tiger Swallowtails of NY: Finger Lakes, Part II

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2023 11:58 am
by Chuck
It merits recognizing that any research, papers, and specimens that predate the recognition of canadensis (Hagen, et. al. 19991) did not discern between glaucus and to-be-canadensis. For example, the greatest possible conundrum is presented in "Polymodal emergence..." (Hagen & Lederhouse, 1985) which demonstrated, amongst other things, that Papilio glaucus (as it was then) was not multivoltine above the 41st parellel.

Now, given the capture records from Ithaca NY (Finger Lakes region, Upstate NY) for 1972 and 1973 is where the question now lies:

Image

What did they capture in excess of 40 specimens an hour in early June? Let me caveat that with my lifetime observations throughout other areas of Finger Lakes which NEVER came close to seeing 40 Tigers in one day during that period. It's my suspicion that Hagen & Lederhouse may have captured canadensis, however those specimens are not in the Cornell collection, and despite my travels to Ithaca in recent years, the weather failed to cooperate to reveal any Tigers at all during that late Spring period. So I do not know what Hagen & Lederhouse captured. The specimens may have gone with Scriber to Michigan, but I've not had time to chase it down, and thought that my own field research would have solved the question by now.

I covered the above in my yet-unpublished paper, which is still awaiting DNA analysis of the July/August specimens.

Now, that said, I used iNat to check for observations of canadensis in the area around Ithaca (Ithaca plus 20 miles N, 15 miles S, 20 miles W, 40 miles E). https://www.inaturalist.org/observation ... n_id=57463 and found the typical useless images. That said, there is one observation with a decent photo that sure looks like canadensis to me https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/119314329

So in summary, any specimen outside of the confirmed canadensis range is suspect of taxon, and any specimen labeled glaucus but predating 1991 may also be suspect.

Re: Tiger Swallowtails of NY: Finger Lakes, Part II

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2023 12:06 pm
by Chuck
mothman55 wrote: Mon Jun 12, 2023 8:33 pm It has been an odd year in central Ontario for the tiger swallowtail (P. canadensis primarily). The extreme hot weather for a week in early April followed by cold, then another few days of extreme heat the latter part of May started the emergences in this area. Saw lots of male puddlers toward the end of May, then again some cooler weather in early June, and more fresh tigers the past few days. The early lilacs are long since dead, and the late lilacs are just now coming into bloom. And now that we have cooler temps again for a few days, I expect to see next to nothing. Hoping the late lilacs will still have some blooms once it warms later in the week and I expect the females will be on the wing. Most years the canadensis peaks about the same time as the late lilacs, but this year I think with the temperature ups and downs the emergences may be more spread out, as I have seen many fresh males in late May and am still seeing fresh tigers here almost 2 weeks later, when I normally would be seeing more wear.

I have caught 3 MST in the past 2 years here, and will be on the lookout for more this year once the canadensis are gone. Glaucus are further south (Toronto/Hamilton) and rarely if ever seen around here (the Kawartha Lakes).
All great data points and observations. Kingston, ON is, IIRC only 74 NM NE of Sodus Point NY, yet this year has been inundated with constant rain, while Finger Lakes has been rainy and cold, but not THAT rainy as Kingston.

Without scrolling back through this thread, IIRC it was 2021 that I saw zero Tigers in June because it was such a cold, rainy, windy month. So far, I'm on track to repeat for 2023.

I'm unfamiliar with "late lilacs" with the exception that the small lilac variants (bushes, not trees, with mini blooms) seem to bloom later. Our lilacs are weeks past blooming.

Re: Tiger Swallowtails of NY: Finger Lakes, Part II

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2023 6:32 pm
by mothman55
I have both common lilac (Syringa vulgaris) and late lilac (Syringa villosa) at my cottage in Central Ontario. The common lilac blooms 3 or 4 weeks before the late lilac. Typically the Papilio canadensis is just coming out as the common lilac is dying. But thankful for the late lilac, which is in full bloom now, especially for female P. canadensis which are generally later than the males. I use an app called ""Picture This" which identifies plants, flowers trees , etc. About $25 a year and worth every penny.

Re: Tiger Swallowtails of NY: Finger Lakes, Part II

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 6:58 am
by Cabintom
I just want to say that I find this research (frustrations and all) fascinating. Keep at it!

Re: Tiger Swallowtails of NY: Finger Lakes, Part II

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 12:49 pm
by Chuck
Cabintom wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 6:58 am I just want to say that I find this research (frustrations and all) fascinating. Keep at it!
Thanks Tom, it's great to know somebody reads the running field report!

Looking forward to your next update.

Chuck

Re: Tiger Swallowtails of NY: Finger Lakes, Part II

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 5:27 pm
by Chuck
Ontario Co, Upstate NY:

12 June 23: cold, 10 hour downpour
13 Jun 23: 21C, partly cloudy, no Tigers
14 June 23: cold, 10 hour downpour
14 June 23: Spotted two Tigers, both going somewhere fast. The second was large, probably female, definitely larger than typical Spring form, yet it's 14-18 days too early for the big "MST" emergence.

Billions of flowering plants- dogwoods, wild rose, ground flowers, yet still (again) haven't seen a Tiger nectaring this year. iNat shows two in this region nectaring, one on wild rose, one on a garden flower- so some do nectar.

Re: Tiger Swallowtails of NY: Finger Lakes, Part II

Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2023 8:04 pm
by Chuck
20 June 2023: One Tiger spotted, as always 10m high on treeline then shot into forest. Mostly cloudy, 22C.

Haven't been out since then, burned out with days and days of field time with nothing to show for it.

In general, there should be Tigers flitting across roads and yards, and there aren't. I attribute this low population to the horrible cold and rain we've had most of June.

Re: Tiger Swallowtails of NY: Finger Lakes, Part II

Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2023 6:20 pm
by Chuck
26 June 2023: back to the field. Partly sunny, 29C.

Four spotted, two captured.

Despite milkweed beginning to bloom, I at first didn't see any Tigers. I figured that though we're roughly a week from the mass emergence, I'd see something- and I was right.

The first spotted dropped out of the forest and flitted around some milkweed. There was, of course, a bunch of brambles between me and it, some 60 yards away, so getting there chewed me up pretty good. Then it flew up and landed about 8m up in an oak tree. I tossed my net and hit the branch, but no luck, so went on.

#2 also came down out of the forest onto milkweed. It too was on the other side of brambles, so I got ripped up again. Then it flew off. A few minutes later it came back out, on the side of the brambles where I'd started- so back through again. Amazingly, I caught this male.

Then #1 repeated it's previous performance. Back through the brambles again to the far edge of the field. As I arrived, it flew up into the oak tree again. So I went and stood under the oak and waited. After a few minutes it dropped down almost on top of me, and I netted a small female.

Neither were fresh. I can't say whether these are glaucus early flight, or MST yet.



Meanwhile, the Speyeria cybele have emerged as well, and I saw the first Euphydras phaeton in a different field. This other field is under 1km from the first, yet I think I've never seen a Tiger here. The last time I was here E phaeton larvae were all J-hanging on the previous year's Queen Anne's Lace preparing to pupate- oddly enough, today when I looked for pupae there were none to be found. I'm sure they've not all eclosed, not close, so that would suggest an extremely high mortality rate.

Re: Tiger Swallowtails of NY: Finger Lakes, Part II

Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2023 8:59 pm
by Chuck
27/28 June: rain
29 June 2023: partly sunny 23C but hazy with Canadian forest fire smoke

Spotted two, none captured. One was flying down the trail toward me as I assembled my net. The other briefly flitted into the field and back into the forest. Milkweed is flowering, but few butterflies around.

So I changed altitude and went to water level to check for a taxa of Hesperid that another member wants. Slogging around a creekbed, chasing small skippers- nope, that's a Lesser, nope, that's all brown...made me appreciate large yellow butterflies.