InsectNet forum

After tackling my drawer of "canadensis" I took a peek at another frustrating series- North American black and yellow swallowtails. Forget the European specimens!

It seems, to me, that this group is hard to ID morphologically (for me, at least) because there are yellowy forms, and dark forms, and short and long tail forms. Ranges are tough because some overlap.

Even after sorting out the obviously-zelicaon, I'm left with a bunch that are going to challenge me.

So I start with a list of SSP from iNaturalist (edited & updated thanks Adam)

INDRA
calcicola
fordi
indra
kaibabensis
martini
minori
nevadensis
panamintensis
parvindra
pergamus
phyllisae
pygmaeus
shastensis
bonevilli ? TBD? need to study more

BAIRDII
bairdii
dodi
oregonia

MACHAON (in NA...probably incomplete)
aliaska
hudsonianus
pikei

I'm sure Adam can correctly update that list. And I'm sure there are those that can ID 98% of specimens morphologically; I'm not one of them.

It looks like butterfliesandmoths.org and Utah Leps haven't been updated in a while http://utahlepsociety.org/indra.html so I'm a bit at a loss of where to even start.

I am waiting for someone to also delve into P. joanae at some point!

Chuck,

Chuck wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2024 12:50 pm bonevilli ? what happened to this one?

This taxon was never formally described, but was referred to as bonnevillei by Wayne Whalley. This paper by Todd Stout is very helpful:
http://www.utahlepsociety.org/volume7_number1.pdf

brucei is a form of P. bairdii bairdii, gorganus only occurs in Europe, not in N America and montanus is a junior homonym (thus unavailable) and belongs to Papilio everesti alpherakyi from West China.

Adam.

eurytides wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2024 2:23 pm I am waiting for someone to also delve into P. joanae at some point!

Odd. I just jumped on iNat and it comes back with "no observations" I think it's having a glitch.

My southern stomping ground is to the east of what's generally considered to be joanae territory. However, past searches in iNat show (reported) observations into KY and other states. So now and then I'd grab a black swallowtail for later investigation.

The problem I had is that the morphological discriminators for P joanae aren't consistent- the original description doesn't match the notes that became the description; later guides to ID also don't agree. I have multiple polyxenes with attached eyes, and floating eyes.

Ranges aside, a differentiator for joanae was purportedly that it's a forest species, and polyxenes a field species. That was fine 30 years ago, but now up this way I'm just as likely to encounter polyxenes in the forest as in the field- it's habits have changed.

So I gave up trying to say whether a specimen is joanae or polyxenes. They're all together in the same drawers. Let someone else figure it out.

adamcotton wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2024 2:29 pm Chuck,

Chuck wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2024 12:50 pm bonevilli ? what happened to this one?

This taxon was never formally described, but was referred to as bonnevillei by Wayne Whalley. This paper by Todd Stout is very helpful:
http://www.utahlepsociety.org/volume7_number1.pdf

I've read that before. So is "bonnevillei" the purported taxon still up for grabs? Why would noone describe it? Harry P inferred to me that someone had. If that's the case, what's the current name, please?

I am not sure why Wayne Whalley never described the population officially. Perhaps there were legal reasons, such as the population perhaps being confined to a protected area?

As far as I know technically it is Papilio indra (undescribed population).

Adam.

Chuck wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2024 12:50 pm So I start with a list of SSP from iNaturalist (edited & updated thanks Adam)

For some reason you didn't delete gorganus from machaon.

Adam.