Papilio memnon ssp. ♀ from Indonesia

[Leonard187]

A female Papilio memnon from Indonesia. It belongs to my friend but she does not know the accurate location nether the ssp. So which ssp. could it be based on its phenotype? Thank you.
She also showed me a tailless spring brood one, and two tailed individuals (summer and spring brood) signed ssp. heronus from Guangxi or Sichuan (the second picture). However, I have read from several books that this ssp. should distrbuted in Taiwan. So is it a mistake？I suppose they should be Papilio agenor.

Papilio memnon F.jpg (224.21 KiB) Viewed 7517 times

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[adamcotton]

It is very difficult to be certain which subspecies this female belongs to without locality (island is enough) data since the obvious differences are in the males. Females of most subspecies are rather variable whereas males are not.

This specimen could be ssp. anceus from Sumatra or ssp. memnon maybe from Java, but I really cannot be sure. I note that similar females from Sumatra usually have a white triangle at the base of the forewing, rather than red, but even this is not a reliable character, as some Sumatran females similar to this have a red triangle.

If the females pictured at the bottom are from Sichuan or Guangxi (anywhere in mainland China and Hainan) then they are P. agenor agenor as ssp. heronus only occurs on Taiwan.

Adam.

[Leonard187]

[quote=adamcotton post_id=8893 time=1705053803 user_id=59]
It is very difficult to be certain which subspecies this female belongs to without locality (island is enough) data since the obvious differences are in the males. Females of most subspecies are rather variable whereas males are not.

This specimen could be ssp. anceus from Sumatra or ssp. memnon maybe from Java, but I really cannot be sure. I note that similar females from Sumatra usually have a white triangle at the base of the forewing, rather than red, but even this is not a reliable character, as some Sumatran females similar to this have a red triangle.

If the females pictured at the bottom are from Sichuan or Guangxi (anywhere in mainland China and Hainan) then they are P. agenor agenor as ssp. heronus only occurs on Taiwan.

Adam.
[/quote]

Thanks Adam, and I have a question about Papilio agenor from Taiwan. Does ssp. agenor distribute In Taiwan? For I saw pictures of several specimens signed 'Papilio (Menelaides) memnon agenor from LIANJIANG Co., Nangan, Jinsha, 23. V. 2014, HSU 14E60.1' or 'JINMEN Co., Jinhu, Haiyinsi, 13. V. 2013, emgd. 16. VI. 2013, HSU 13E27' from the book Butterfly Fauna of Taiwan so I confused about it.

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Another question, I have seen I specimen of male P. agenor with very bright blue colour and a pair of very small tails (shown below) and the label signed from Sichuan. Is it also ssp. agenor? or just some other ssp. bred in Sichuan using source from other provenance？These three male individuals showed different colour.

QQ截图20240113002513.jpg (248.61 KiB) Viewed 7483 times

QQ截图20240113002531.jpg (185.44 KiB) Viewed 7483 times

[adamcotton]

Thanks Adam, and I have a question about Papilio agenor from Taiwan. Does ssp. agenor distribute In Taiwan? For I saw pictures of several specimens signed 'Papilio (Menelaides) memnon agenor from LIANJIANG Co., Nangan, Jinsha, 23. V. 2014, HSU 14E60.1' or 'JINMEN Co., Jinhu, Haiyinsi, 13. V. 2013, emgd. 16. VI. 2013, HSU 13E27' from the book Butterfly Fauna of Taiwan so I confused about it.

If you look at the map of China Lianjiang County consists of a group of islands off the coast of Fujian, which are currently controlled by Taiwan, if I understand correctly. P. agenor agenor occurs on those islands, but not on Taiwan Island itself.

Another question, I have seen I specimen of male P. agenor with very bright blue colour and a pair of very small tails (shown below) and the label signed from Sichuan. Is it also ssp. agenor? or just some other ssp. bred in Sichuan using source from other provenance？These three male individuals showed different colour.

This specimen is very strange, I have never seen an agenor with a blue sheen like this and suppose the stubby tails and blue sheen must be an aberration. If it was a hybrid with another species the wing pattern would be intermediate to the other parent. Nowadays people are injecting chemicals in fresh pupae to make strange aberrations, so it is possible that this could be the result of such an experiment, but it could also be natural.

Adam.

[Leonard187]

If you look at the map of China Lianjiang County consists of a group of islands off the coast of Fujian, which are currently controlled by Taiwan, if I understand correctly. P. agenor agenor occurs on those islands, but not on Taiwan Island itself.

This specimen is very strange, I have never seen an agenor with a blue sheen like this and suppose the stubby tails and blue sheen must be an aberration. If it was a hybrid with another species the wing pattern would be intermediate to the other parent. Nowadays people are injecting chemicals in fresh pupae to make strange aberrations, so it is possible that this could be the result of such an experiment, but it could also be natural.

Adam.

Thanks for your guidance and help, and I went to check the map. So ssp. heronus is distributed in Taiwan island, and ssp. agenor is in China mainland and several islands nearby.
About the blue memnon, I suppose it might be hybrid though I cannot think of such a bright parent. I have seen a specimen of male P. luzviae (of course it is hybrid by lowii and rumanzovia) which is also presanted very small tails just like this one. I think it is a terrible thing that so many 'manmade species' or aberration are emerged, Due to I did not see any 'real lowii' around my circle of friends, because all female specimens they showed to me have very complete 'red triangles' on their forewings. Althouh they claimed them as Papilio lowii from Marinduque.

[adamcotton]

Althouh they claimed them as Papilio lowii from Marinduque.

These are farm bred accidental hybrids. True P. memnon lowii only occurs on Palawan, but many years ago the farms in the other Philippines islands obtained breeding stock of lowii from Palawan to breed, at the same time as what were originally believed to be heronus from Taiwan, but which are claimed to be from the Philippines. These were named P. memnon cremata by Manguin in 1998. Perhaps they originated from small islands south of Taiwan, I don't know. Anyway, the butterfly farmers thought that lowii was a separate species and put them in the same flight cage as the 'cremata' and they interbred. Now all the 'lowii' from the Philippine farms are hybrids, except for those from Palawan itself, where it is illegal to import livestock from other islands.

This is actually an issue with many bred species of Philippine butterflies. The farms around different islands all exchange livestock with each other to prevent inbreeding, so even when they are the same species the origin is likely not from the island where the specimens were farmed. This is particularly a problem for species with different subspecies on the islands, as the breeding stock is mixed.

Adam.