The future of the hobby

[livingplanet3]

Chuck brought up some points in another thread that I've been wondering quite a lot about in recent times. I didn't want to get too off-topic in the other thread, so am starting a new one here, as I'd be interested to hear others' comments:

Chuck wrote:

...you just keep doing what you're told until butterfly collecting is banned, private butterfly collections are unheard of...

...Meanwhile, the rain forest gets clear cut, 3rd world cities get crowded with unemployed youths...

... the next generation who won't be afforded those opportunities.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it does indeed seem that (at least in the US and some other countries) there is either a general effort to eventually eliminate / depopularize private insect collecting, and also, simply not to encourage the newer generations to pursue hobbies such as this. Have insect collectors already become "relics" of a bygone era? I can see the way the wind is blowing, and really have to wonder just how much longer this and related hobbies will manage to survive, either due to increasing regulation, or just declining interest. While it might have first been made widely popular back in the Victorian age, might we actually be among the last to have very much involvement with this hobby? Are people in the not-too-distant future still going to be rearing / collecting insects at all? While there are certainly exceptions, it seems that the majority of those with a truly lifelong interest, are people who are now in at least their 50s (and often older). The world is now changing faster than ever before; so much so, it's often difficult to keep up with it all. Is the entomology hobby destined, like various other things, to eventually exist only as a "metaverse" version? Will future entomology enthusiasts have virtual cabinets of virtual drawers of virtual butterflies? Will all of their collecting be done on virtual expeditions, instead of real environments? I have to admit, that's a scenario that doesn't seem very distant at all from where we are now. The line between the digital and physical worlds is getting blurrier by the day, and with the rapidly advancing fields of artificial intelligence / quantum computing, who knows where this will lead? Will the world even be recognizable in another 10 years, if not even sooner?

Your thoughts?

[Chuck]

We've discussed this before- and, so have other forums on other interests.

There are three change catalysts: need, distractions, and freedom.

We no longer need to ride horses, we have cars. So the proportion of the population that can ride a horse, or own a horse, has plummeted.

We have other things to do besides riding horses for hours on the weekend. We have motorcycles, sailboats, school-age athletic games, and now TV and Internet. In 1888 there wasn't much else to do; now there is.

Freedom: two-fold- physical and institutional freedom. Not so easy to keep a horse in NYC any more, and nowhere to ride it. And, I'm sure it's illegal.

So on insect collecting: we don't need to collect we can buy, there are other things to do, it's hard to find somewhere to do it, and in many places it's illegal. And, this has snowballed over the generations. MORE alternatives, LESS space to collect, and LESS freedom to collect, growing worse every year. Plus, if the parents don't do it (whatever it is) and the schools don't teach it, and other kids don't do it, well it's pretty much guaranteed that Junior won't do it.

Insect collecting was a past time, now it's a hobby. These terms appear synonymous but in 1888 one would go into the outdoors, journey around, and collect bugs. We passed the time with a healthy, comprehensive activity. In doing so, we learned about plants, and animals; tracking, fishing for lunch, how to read the weather, and back in the house, how to do comparative studies. So few families go for a hike, the kids are tied up with school baseball, and it's easier to buy something already identified.

Even if we eliminated all the laws against collecting butterflies, few would take advantage of it.

Lifelong participants all 50+ YO?
Sailing
Muscle cars
Machine guns
Hunting
Camera photography
Sewing
Machinist
etc etc etc

[livingplanet3]

Well put.

[kevinkk]

Spot on observations.
Guilty. I used to read more, now I have a laptop.
I can presume that if I was born in the recent past,
rather than the mid 60's, I'd be even less likely to
have a science related hobby. We didn't study insects
in school when I was a kid, the interest was spurred on by
reading and a donated case of insects at the public library.
My parents nurtured it, and our lifestyle supported it,
hunting, fishing and the outdoors. I'm sure the hobby will
continue in some form in the future, if only the offspring of adults
now in hobby.
Just as well about the horses..I don't easily trust animals bigger
than I am

[wollastoni]

The future of our hobby is obviously at risk for various reasons, as well explained by Chuck in this topic.
This said, it is our collective mission to make it last as long as possible, to make it fun as long as possible, to make it scientifically useful as long as possible.
We are a small but great community ! Let's make it thrive ! And if we fail, we would have tried and spent great years !

I would add that there are plenty of young collectors in European insect fairs, in social networks, in Asia (Japan, China, Taiwan, Korea...). The situation seems not as good in the USA and in the UK for some reasons.

[Chuck]

I would add that there are plenty of young collectors in European insect fairs, in social networks, in Asia (Japan, China, Taiwan, Korea...). The situation seems not as good in the USA and in the UK for some reasons.

To start, we must recognize that when USA was first being formed, with intent as an agrarian society, Europe was largely populated with huge cities. The US founding fathers (leaders/politicians) specifically sought to avoid the diseases, social ills, crime, and corruption they had observed in European cities- but with that they also avoided all of those things that fall under "culture"- food, arts, sciences.

That said, US did eventually join the popular movement during the Age of Discovery, which arguably ended about 1920. Until then, entomology (which was largely field collecting) was part of culture- a gentleman's activity. During the 1900s American entomologists rose to the prominence of many of the great European entomologists.

But following WW2 The American Dream was introduced- the single-family home with the white picket fence in the suburbs. And Americans flocked to this dream, and achieved it in great numbers. Europeans on the other hand had but one option: to rebuild the great urban centers, as they'd done for centuries prior, thus effectively had no change in outlook. This though was not necessarily to the benefit of Americans- with The American Dream came new diversions from persuits such as entomology- from camping to collecting cars to McDonald's.

Humans are passionate, bordering on fanatics. Europe, being so heavily populated, means small homes, even apartments. No lawn, small driveway maybe, but greater income with more residual (spending) cash. Simply put, Europeans don't have room for six collector's cars, a boat, and a room dedicated to a butterfly collection (or, as I had, 40 aquariums of 6,000 liters total.)

Thus, these factors combined resulted in Americans focusing on "more" with Europeans (and Japanese) focusing on "better." When one focuses on "better" it means deeper studies, more knowledge, more focus, more intensity. Conversely, in USA we have The Dumbing Down of America.

This has all be exacerbated by the end of the Age of Discovery. Somewhere around WW2 the world lost interest. We'd been to the poles, we'd penetrated every jungle, we had captured every big, pretty butterfly. The people had simply lost interest. Science became a hobby, not a career, and it was no longer a snooty gentleman's club. Sure the world graduates thousands of entomologists every year, and virtually every one goes into studies backed by agriculture or money-making ventures. Deep sea exploration is either military-related or privately funded; space is all military-related; geology, earthquakes etc are funded for resilience and survivability of cities. There just isn't an interest in science anymore.

Then too the populist and legal movements that have ramifications. How many countries have virtually completely closed their lands to foreign scientists, particularly citizen scientists? Which American kid didn't have a box of cecropia yet look at Smart's book and dream of Ornithoptera, morphos, etc? That door is closed. In USA, the Lacey Act has been increasingly interpreted in a manner that prevents scientific interest and discovery. USFWS and USFS have, like all government organizations formed with the best intention, have become self-feeding, operating for growth and increased power; the original intent and comprehensive sight has been lost. Another nail into the science coffin. Europe has it's issues, but rabid re-interpretation and enforcement of science-killing laws are lesser than in USA (note too that Australia is probably worse than USA.)

Part of The Dumbing Down of America, not even recognized when the phase was coined, is the internet. Short, sensationalized opinions by idiots and flashy videos with no real content. It horrifies me- we have all knowledge at our fingertips: I don't have to open a book to ID a butterfly anymore; I can find exact locations of captures & sightings to the meter; I can order a new net without moving a muscle, I can book a flight to Angola in two minutes; I can look up a larval food plant, then use iNat to find the nearest plant. And this goes for EVERYTHING! But that's not what youths are using the internet for- they're using it for entertainment. The ramifications of this I think we are experiencing now with social upheaval and brainwashed idiots. This is not unique to USA unfortunately- it's also the Dumbing Down of Europe; and in Fiji they had 4G and phone data (= non-stop videos) long before USA, thus the Dumbing Down of Fiji.

So there you have it: the difference between European and American citizen scientists is quality vs. quantity; but changes in the social environment and technology will kill the last vestiges of citizen science everywhere.

[livingplanet3]

...I used to read more, now I have a laptop.
I can presume that if I was born in the recent past,
rather than the mid 60's, I'd be even less likely to
have a science related hobby. We didn't study insects
in school when I was a kid, the interest was spurred on by
reading and a donated case of insects at the public library.
My parents nurtured it, and our lifestyle supported it,
hunting, fishing and the outdoors. I'm sure the hobby will
continue in some form in the future, if only the offspring of adults
now in hobby.
Just as well about the horses..I don't easily trust animals bigger
than I am

Indeed, I can relate to pretty much all of that!

[livingplanet3]

I would add that there are plenty of young collectors in European insect fairs, in social networks, in Asia (Japan, China, Taiwan, Korea...). The situation seems not as good in the USA and in the UK for some reasons.

To start, we must recognize that when USA was first being formed, with intent as an agrarian society, Europe was largely populated with huge cities. The US founding fathers (leaders/politicians) specifically sought to avoid the diseases, social ills, crime, and corruption they had observed in European cities- but with that they also avoided all of those things that fall under "culture"- food, arts, sciences.

That said, US did eventually join the popular movement during the Age of Discovery, which arguably ended about 1920. Until then, entomology (which was largely field collecting) was part of culture- a gentleman's activity. During the 1900s American entomologists rose to the prominence of many of the great European entomologists.

But following WW2 The American Dream was introduced- the single-family home with the white picket fence in the suburbs. And Americans flocked to this dream, and achieved it in great numbers. Europeans on the other hand had but one option: to rebuild the great urban centers, as they'd done for centuries prior, thus effectively had no change in outlook. This though was not necessarily to the benefit of Americans- with The American Dream came new diversions from persuits such as entomology- from camping to collecting cars to McDonald's.

Humans are passionate, bordering on fanatics. Europe, being so heavily populated, means small homes, even apartments. No lawn, small driveway maybe, but greater income with more residual (spending) cash. Simply put, Europeans don't have room for six collector's cars, a boat, and a room dedicated to a butterfly collection (or, as I had, 40 aquariums of 6,000 liters total.)

Thus, these factors combined resulted in Americans focusing on "more" with Europeans (and Japanese) focusing on "better." When one focuses on "better" it means deeper studies, more knowledge, more focus, more intensity. Conversely, in USA we have The Dumbing Down of America.

This has all be exacerbated by the end of the Age of Discovery. Somewhere around WW2 the world lost interest. We'd been to the poles, we'd penetrated every jungle, we had captured every big, pretty butterfly. The people had simply lost interest. Science became a hobby, not a career, and it was no longer a snooty gentleman's club. Sure the world graduates thousands of entomologists every year, and virtually every one goes into studies backed by agriculture or money-making ventures. Deep sea exploration is either military-related or privately funded; space is all military-related; geology, earthquakes etc are funded for resilience and survivability of cities. There just isn't an interest in science anymore.

Then too the populist and legal movements that have ramifications. How many countries have virtually completely closed their lands to foreign scientists, particularly citizen scientists? Which American kid didn't have a box of cecropia yet look at Smart's book and dream of Ornithoptera, morphos, etc? That door is closed. In USA, the Lacey Act has been increasingly interpreted in a manner that prevents scientific interest and discovery. USFWS and USFS have, like all government organizations formed with the best intention, have become self-feeding, operating for growth and increased power; the original intent and comprehensive sight has been lost. Another nail into the science coffin. Europe has it's issues, but rabid re-interpretation and enforcement of science-killing laws are lesser than in USA (note too that Australia is probably worse than USA.)

Part of The Dumbing Down of America, not even recognized when the phase was coined, is the internet. Short, sensationalized opinions by idiots and flashy videos with no real content. It horrifies me- we have all knowledge at our fingertips: I don't have to open a book to ID a butterfly anymore; I can find exact locations of captures & sightings to the meter; I can order a new net without moving a muscle, I can book a flight to Angola in two minutes; I can look up a larval food plant, then use iNat to find the nearest plant. And this goes for EVERYTHING! But that's not what youths are using the internet for- they're using it for entertainment. The ramifications of this I think we are experiencing now with social upheaval and brainwashed idiots. This is not unique to USA unfortunately- it's also the Dumbing Down of Europe; and in Fiji they had 4G and phone data (= non-stop videos) long before USA, thus the Dumbing Down of Fiji.

So there you have it: the difference between European and American citizen scientists is quality vs. quantity; but changes in the social environment and technology will kill the last vestiges of citizen science everywhere.

Thanks again, Chuck - that's quite an analysis of the situation, and how history has shaped it into what it has become.

[Papilio_indra]

As mentioned by others, the hobby of collecting and preserving insects is on the decline in the U.S. as fewer young people today are taking up the hobby. There are however many individuals that instead rear and release (or keep as pets) various insects. Many of the milkweed patches in my area are regularly searched throughout the summer for monarch butterfly caterpillars, which are then reared and often tagged, in collaboration with a conservation organization, before they are released. The only science related to this activity is the tracking of migrating adults, which is worthwhile.

At one time local 4-H chapters encouraged kids to make an insect collection. It was looked at as a competition in a way, where the participants would compete with others at county and state fairs. Usually those collections with the greatest number of insect families represented and the best preparation techniques were the winners. Those that made the winning collections would often continue to build upon them and remain in the hobby while the others (I don't want to call them losers) would quit at that point. I haven't seen any insect collections in the local fairs in the past several years which is an indication of waning interest.

It is interesting to note that the number of people interested in collecting wild mushrooms in the U.S. has increased tremendously in recent years. That activity has many similarities to our own insect collecting hobby: the enjoyment of searching for various species in a wide variety of habitats, you can focus on certain groups out of the thousands of known and unknown species, and you can share your findings with others and contribute to scientific databases. The main difference is that many, but not all, mushroom hunters typically look for specimens to enjoy in gourmet meals and not so much for building a collection of preserved specimens. There is still a lot to learn regarding the taxonomy, life cycles, host plants, and distributions of fungi so maybe those unknowns are fueling this new interest as it did with entomology decades ago.

[Trehopr1]

Entomology has always been a niche interest, hobby, and science. Very few people (overall) ever have the personal passion and "natural" innate interest to cultivate a REAL and lasting pursuit of interest in this science. I think it also takes someone with a natural born "Spirit for Adventure" to pursue it with any degree of satisfaction.

Early aurelian collectors were not only "natural born" naturalists (from an early age); they possessed a sense of adventure and discovery unlike most people in their times.

There will always be individuals who take up a measure of interest in the "little things" they find around them. They will pursue it to varying degrees and only a rare few will ever make a profession of it. Yet, these creatures in all their varied guises will continue to captivate the interest of a few who become dedicated to their being

It's a pity these days that the few people who aspire to follow the science as a (possible) profession largely wind up working in the agricultural field or pest control. Sad, that taxonomy has been swept to the back burner and will likely remain there.

However, it still only takes a few simple tools to get started along with the thrill of being a "small game hunter", and a desire to constantly learn to make this a fascinating, memorable, and rewarding hobby (if that's all it ever is).

[livingplanet3]

Thanks to all for your input on this thread.

[adamcotton]

I haven't seen any insect collections in the local fairs in the past several years which is an indication of waning interest.

Is it an indication of waning interest or is it a sign that killing insects has become socially less acceptable?

Adam.

I think both.

[papiliotheona]

A few celebrities coming aboard our cause would help our profile A LOT. Where are the modern-day Winston Churchills?

I suspect that there are a few that do, but keep their mouths shut out of not wanting to be canceled--a very real danger in this day and age.

Imagine what would happen to anyone with an audience who said "The monarch is not endangered; the movement to 'protect' it is lies and pseudoscience." They might not have an audience--and career--for much longer.

[Chuck]

Is it an indication of waning interest or is it a sign that killing insects has become socially less acceptable?

Adam.

I think both.

Killing insects, specifically the stance against, is an ill of waning interest, all of it a result of general complacence and trust in big government.

As I'd detailed, the suburbanites have little interest in outdoor sciences. The suburbs are consuming former agrarian regions, which was the bastion of outdoor sciences.

Historically, the organization 4H was for rural youths, and focused on rural skillsets and sciences. Now, "4-H STEM Challenge. The 2023 4-H STEM Challenge, Power Protectors, teaches kids how to use Science, Technology, Engineering and Math (STEM) to explore the world of renewable energy. Developed by 4-H educators from Cornell University, University of Illinois, Utah State University and..." 4H is the organization that would have insect collections displayed at fairs and such; now 4H in our region is about dead.

The suburbanite attitude which adopts Glassberg's "binoculars are good enough" is convenient to them- no need to go into the field itself, no need to actually identify an animal.

There's waning comprehensive intelligence as well. As I understand it, collecting Papilio is illegal in Canada. Well, when you eliminate collecting of the largest, most striking, and often most common taxa, what does that do to the interest level of youths? Duh. Of course, this move was at least met with complacency, if not support, by the urban and suburban Canadians.

Canada's urban population comprises 80% of all residents. Also the same 80% for Americans. Without digging into details, I suspect this 80% encompasses both truly urban and suburban (it must, right?). Few urbanites have real interest in outdoor sciences; nor do they care if laws impact rural areas. So that's where we are- a general ambivalence, if not even negativity, toward field-related activities and sciences.

[papiliotheona]

Chuck,

I think it is only the province of Ontario that protects pretty, showy butterflies (all Papilionidae, as well as monarchs) but I am sure that will spread in social-justice Canada. At least in Ontario, there is a workaround for citizens to get limited permits to collect these if they pay to join an approved entomological club. That option doesn't exist for good folks in the People's Republic of California, which protects monarchs out of the same social-justice motivations. "Save the endangered monarch from the toxic white male heteropatriarchy!"

And, yeah, you are right about brainwashed urban America and Canada. Roll up your sleeves, get your jab, turn in your guns, disown your friends who are guilty of wrongthink--Big Brother always knows best! People who lead easier lives always think it is their God-given right to rule over those whose existence comes at the price of more blood, sweat, and tears.

[Chuck]

And, yeah, you are right about brainwashed urban America and Canada.

In a way, it's all of us. People used to shoot little birds and stuff or taxidermy them for bird collections. Most people, field entomologists included, would probably call the cops if they saw somebody shoot a cardinal. Then they'd go home and praise their cat for bringing one home. Speaking of which, you can't shoot cats either, and if ever there was an animal that should have no limit and no season, that's the one.

And, not for nothing, you can't even have a frozen or taxidermied bird. I see all sorts of dead birds, and it's illegal to grab it and taxidermy it. Just two weeks ago found a Belted Kingfisher that had hit a window; had to leave it. I'm sure it went into the trash bin.

[Kirkwilliams]

In NZ there is an annual cat round up in North Canterbury where school kids go out and shoot feral cats. I'm not kidding. I think it got canned this year. Google it!

[kevinkk]

Well, this thread has taken an anti- cat direction I can't support. Have I ever mentioned all the times I've been bitten by dogs in unprovoked
situations? Apparently some of us taste better than others-

[bobw]

Admittedly, they do have a big impact on the songbird population, but I love cats and am horrified that anyone would want to shoot one.

[58chevy]

Collectors like us should do more to encourage youngsters to become interested in our disappearing hobby. I got started at age 8 (I'll be 75 soon) because my uncle, with the help of my grandfather, made an insect collection for the 4-H Club. I always admired it and decided to start my own collection. It became an educational, enjoyable lifetime hobby. Now I am helping my 7-year-old grandson make his own collection. He has 2 Cornell drawers filled and is working on a third. Last weekend I traveled to a ranch in south TX with some entomology students and their parents. We had a great time, caught lots of bugs, and watched the eclipse. The ranch was in the path of totality and the view was awesome. The kids learned about entomology, astronomy, and astrophotography. Hopefully it encouraged them to continue their interest in science. They seemed to enjoy it very much.