InsectNet forum

I coat my field clothes in Permethrin because in our area more than 60% of ticks carry Lyme disease, and it's a very serious disease. I have to say, it works great- never had a tick on me with the Permathrin-coated clothing.

Now, as a homeowner, there are regular problems with wasp and ant infestations. Raid spray never quite seems to do the trick.


A couple weeks ago I walked my wife out to her car in the morning. As the overhead garage door lifted, she walked under it, wonderfully lit by the yellow rays of the rising sun. But so were a couple thousand tiny ants and wood particles, dropping from the wood base of the garage door all over my wife.

I was out of Raid. So, I spotted the bottle of Permathrin, and thought, "why not?" And gave the thousands of ants on the ground, as well as the base of the door, as quick spray. Not a soaking, just a misting. And pow. It killed the entire nest, one application.

Yesterday I noticed that yellow jackets had made a nest behind the front porch light. So I gave them a misting too. Not like Raid, in which I'd spray the heck out of it. And today, dozens of dead yellow jackets on the porch, with more trickling out, falling to the ground.

I'm not sure what's in that Permathrin, but it seems to work better than anything else.

I find the thought of spraying ones clothing with any kind of chemical designed to kill smaller creatures disturbing !

If you spray your clothing and you are tramping around in natural habitats in warm weather then you are surely sweating and these chemical tainted clothes are rubbing against the skin of your legs and arms at the very least.


The chemical is therefor being absorbed through the pores of your skin thus you are exposing yourself to repeated exposures over a cumulative amount of time.

This could potentially be doing damage to your liver or pancreas or other vital organs. I would hope that you would want to live a long productive life and not have issues crop up a little later in life which may be related to this chemical you have been using.

I don't mean to sound like some sort of a preacher here but, for being a citizen scientist who relishes truly "scientific" discussions/ topics --- well, your wisdom seems misplaced --- for the love of field work.

This chemical as you say has effectively killed ticks, ants, yellowjackets and just about anything else you've ever "lightly" misted with it. That alone should indicate to you the seriousness of what may be in it.

If the ticks or chiggers are that bad in your area then I would likely stay away from the high weeds or thick brush that you are likely to encounter them in. You can still enjoy nature by staying on trails, bike pads and areas of only knee-high vegetation where these nuisance arthropods are less likely to exist.

Ultimately, it is all a personal choice and some of us are born to "push the envelope" of good reason for the love of doing something we enjoy.

However, there is ALWAYS a price to be paid and the bill will come do.....

Wish you well in your endeavors

Trehopr1 wrote: Tue Aug 15, 2023 9:32 pm I find the thought of spraying ones clothing with any kind of chemical designed to kill smaller creatures disturbing !

If you spray your clothing and you are tramping around in natural habitats in warm weather then you are surely sweating and these chemical tainted clothes are rubbing against the skin of your legs and arms at the very least.

...or being a citizen scientist who relishes truly "scientific" discussions/ topics --- well, your wisdom seems misplaced --- for the love of field work.

....
If the ticks or chiggers are that bad in your area then I would likely stay away from the high weeds or thick brush that you are likely to encounter them in. You can still enjoy nature by staying on trails, bike pads and areas of only knee-high vegetation where these nuisance arthropods are less likely to exist.

....

However, there is ALWAYS a price to be paid and the bill will come do.....

Surely, I do analyze things scientifically, and there is a trade off.

To be clear on Ticks- so that there are no misconceptions based on the above claim- ticks are not limited to tall grasses. I've picked up ticks in lawns that haven't been mowed in a week; along forest trails, and on the side of bike paths. In fact, ticks are most prevalent at the edges of forest and field. Ticks go up into trees and drop onto the victim. Most Lyme disease victims in NY are passive hikers and such who stick to wide trails and town parks. So doing as suggested above would actually increase the danger.

Permathrin has been used to treat Scabies long before it's use as a tick deterrent. It's rubbed into the skin. This is, of course, not long term exposure, however Permathrin (for what it's worth) is government approved. Americans rub all sorts of crap into their skin.

The alternative is to go with nothing, which is guaranteed to pick up ticks. In NYS, under 40% of ticks do not have Lyme disease. So figure if I pick up three ticks in one day (as I did in KY) the chance of not picking up a Lyme-ridden tick is .4*.4*.4 = 6% PER DAY. That's pretty crappy odds. Multiply that by 30 days in the field and it's under 1% chance that I'd not get a Lyme tick. In other words, without Permathrin it's virtually guaranteed that I pick up a Lyme tick within two field days.

Note that ticks don't burrow immediately, so even though I've never had a single tick w/ Permathrin clothing, I still strip off all my clothes in the garage, and leave them there. Then I check myself and take a shower. Lyme is a debilitating, life-long condition, much like what I experience with my second COVID "vaccine." So I do due diligence, despite the apparent success of Permathrin.

About absorption from clothing: most American clothing is made from petrochemicals, which rub all over one, all day, every day. Socks aren't even wool or cotton anymore, so all that chemical & sweat mix in stinking sneakers is a chemical bath. Many clothes are treated with fire retardants, UV blockers, or waterproofing. We apply sunscreen, mosquito repellent, makeup, etc. How bad can some Permathrin be?

Not to mention the two decades of cooking with PTFE pans, then copper (another anti-invertibrate chemical), and now "anodized" aluminum. Everything outgasses: the interior of the new auto, the sheetrock on your walls, the new Luxury Vinyl Plank flooring. The vegetables are genetically modified, as is the salmon; the chicken and beef get growth hormones. In corrupt NYS the government is pushing spreading of PFAS-loaded human excrement on fields because NYC has nowhere to put it (Maine, BTW, has banned this state-wide.) Meanwhile, in NYS and elsewhere, we can't eat the fish because they're loaded with mercury from 100 years ago, and corn and beans grown for biofuel use outrageous amounts of pesticides, which kill aquatic invertebrates and causes poisonous algae blooms, but the state crooks don't care because it's money.

Locally the sprayed for gypsy moths two years ago. This year NOT ONE Saturnid came to my lights. Zero. This may or may not impact our health, but it isn't good for the environment.

It seems virtually everyone dies of cancer now. Our environment of foods, pesticides, and petrochemicals seems to have guaranteed that. Whether I go into the field with Permathrin or not doesn't seem to change that.

Besides which is quality of life. I enjoy the outdoors. I trade risk (falls, heat stroke, snake bites, ticks, etc.) and discomfort for quality of life. I'm not interested in sitting in a room buying butterflies. I enjoy looking at the photos of purchased rarities, but it's not for me.

Trehopr1 wrote: Tue Aug 15, 2023 9:32 pm I find the thought of spraying ones clothing with any kind of chemical designed to kill smaller creatures disturbing !

If you spray your clothing and you are tramping around in natural habitats in warm weather then you are surely sweating and these chemical tainted clothes are rubbing against the skin of your legs and arms at the very least.


The chemical is therefor being absorbed through the pores of your skin thus you are exposing yourself to repeated exposures over a cumulative amount of time.

This could potentially be doing damage to your liver or pancreas or other vital organs. I would hope that you would want to live a long productive life and not have issues crop up a little later in life which may be related to this chemical you have been using.

I don't mean to sound like some sort of a preacher here but, for being a citizen scientist who relishes truly "scientific" discussions/ topics --- well, your wisdom seems misplaced --- for the love of field work.

This chemical as you say has effectively killed ticks, ants, yellowjackets and just about anything else you've ever "lightly" misted with it. That alone should indicate to you the seriousness of what may be in it.

If the ticks or chiggers are that bad in your area then I would likely stay away from the high weeds or thick brush that you are likely to encounter them in. You can still enjoy nature by staying on trails, bike pads and areas of only knee-high vegetation where these nuisance arthropods are less likely to exist.

Ultimately, it is all a personal choice and some of us are born to "push the envelope" of good reason for the love of doing something we enjoy.

However, there is ALWAYS a price to be paid and the bill will come do.....

Wish you well in your endeavors

Some of us don't have the luxury of not working in the wild. And as a safety precaution, using Permethrin to avoid contracting a serious diseases seems like a no-brainer. Here at work, using it is at the discretion of each employee, but we will pay to have three work outfits treated each summer. But I feel like I would be at faulty if I did not remind our staff every spring that we will pay for this given the health risk from tick born disease in the region..

Permethrin is based on pyrethroids - natural insecticides that mammals detoxify pretty easily thanks to our mix-function oxidase enzymes (which insect do not have). Those fast acting "fly-sprays" that restaurants use are pyrethrin-based. These sprays knock the flies down quickly, but you have to sweep them up and throw them outside before the revive. In otherwords, pyrethrins are not all that toxic. Permethrin works the same way - not by killing ticks and chiggers. They simply pass out as they craw across treated clothing.

The treatments are water-fast once applied and dried, so they don't migrate to either the environment or your body very readily. Typically, my spray-can treated field pants and socks last through 5 or 6 washings before I treat again. If you have your clothing professionally treated - they guarantee that you will get 5 months of tick protection with weekly washing.

You note that there is always a price to be paid. Before I started to use Permethrin, I picked up Lyme Disease, and it is no fun even if detected early. So, I already paid at the office and I will not go down that path again.

John

Jshuey wrote: Wed Aug 16, 2023 5:59 pm
Permethrin is based on pyrethroids - natural insecticides that mammals detoxify pretty easily thanks to our mix-function oxidase enzymes (which insect do not have). Those fast acting "fly-sprays" that restaurants use are pyrethrin-based. These sprays knock the flies down quickly, but you have to sweep them up and throw them outside before the revive. In otherwords, pyrethrins are not all that toxic. Permethrin works the same way - not by killing ticks and chiggers. They simply pass out as they craw across treated clothing.

The treatments are water-fast once applied and dried, so they don't migrate to either the environment or your body very readily. Typically, my spray-can treated field pants and socks last through 5 or 6 washings before I treat again. If you have your clothing professionally treated - they guarantee that you will get 5 months of tick protection with weekly washing.

Man, you are a wealth of knowledge! Thanks for the details. I treat mine clothes with every washing, which is about every five days. I was concerned today that the moisture might wash out the Permathrin, but it surprisingly wasn't that wet- and, it looks like the concern was for naught.

I'm all for risk in exchange for reward of being outdoors studying science. Sometimes for fun- I've ridden sharks, picked stingrays out of the water, carried automatic weapons while doing field research, flown on no-name aircraft with no certification, seen venomous snakes, you name it. I'd not go into the field around here without Permathrin. I work from a computer most of the day, so without field time I'd enjoy no quality of life. The thought of not going outdoors, not going into nature, and being around people and suburbia constantly is mortifying.

I suppose that having been a pest control exterminator for
a couple years of my life (and having had a full training) in
proper chemical usage has --- "heightened" my awareness
of the potential dangers of skin contact by man-made "safe"
chemicals.

I'm not here to argue with anyone about how they conduct
their collecting activities. However, when I do read of someone's
anomalous approach to an aspect of this science I then may
pose a question or forward an inquiry.

Your calculated and self justified responses to your manner of
fieldwork were expected... Even a "free-solo" rockwall climber
who scales sheer, very high, and dangerous escarpments using
only their hands and feet (no ropes/safety equip.) will revel
in a litany of reasons why their approach to enjoyment is
perfectly sensible.

How you conduct yourself in your own approach to field work
is your business. Your final remark in your reply presuming that
I am "sitting in a room buying butterflies" is sorely misplaced.

I happen to be a fairly active field man myself and have been
virtually all of my life (as best I could between jobs/family duties).
Most summers I get out on average 8 or 9 times in 4 months while
balancing the rest of life. Probably nowhere near what you do but,
sufficient enough for me.

Over all this time I've never used chemical applications on my self
or clothing --- ever ! Have gotten ticks on the clothing but, never
had one get imbedded. I've been chased out of the woods "literally"
by unexpectedly high mosquito counts. No mosquito borne illnesses.

Not saying I'm Superman; I just know when it's time to get out of
a situation to avoid future repercussions.

So, to each their own decisions/outcomes.

Regards...

Trehopr1 wrote: Wed Aug 16, 2023 6:42 pm Your final remark in your reply presuming that
I am "sitting in a room buying butterflies" is sorely misplaced.

I said "I" am not interested in sitting in a room buying butterflies.

I enjoy many of the images you and others post, even if I already have that species. Generally, the set job, the lighting, and such are very nice. The opportunity to view those images serves me twofold- first, to see species which are not in my specific fields of research, and second to enjoy them for their beauty, not as scientific specimens. I should add a third, that the spectacular professional-level photography is well appreciated.

The oral LD50 for permethrin in rats is around 2500mg/KG, and thought to be about 1000mg/kg in human adults. So an average 100 kg adult would need to eat 100 grams (nearly 4 oz) of permethrin to have a 50% chance of dying from its toxicity. The skin adsorption LD50 of permethrin in rabbits is around 2000mg/kg. I'd have a hard time worrying about problems arising from skin exposure to permethrin-treated fabric!

Thank you jhyatt for your input in this matter. You are certainly far better versed in these specifics then I could ever be.

I tend to err on the side of cautious objection when the discussion of insecticides, pesticides, etc. is brought up and involves anyone's exposure.

Well, I'm glad we put fear to bed with science.

Interesting that John notes ticks pass over Permathrin and go to sleep, given that it killed the ants and yellowjackets. In the case of the latter, they'd fall from the nest twitching, then die. None flew off. The die-off and falling wasps covered two days. Wife wasn't too happy with dozens of dead yellowjackets on the porch, so she swept them off.

Chuck wrote: Thu Aug 17, 2023 12:26 pm Well, I'm glad we put fear to bed with science.

Interesting that John notes ticks pass over Permathrin and go to sleep, given that it killed the ants and yellowjackets. In the case of the latter, they'd fall from the nest twitching, then die. None flew off. The die-off and falling wasps covered two days. Wife wasn't too happy with dozens of dead yellowjackets on the porch, so she swept them off.

I think they go "to sleep" forever if they have prolonged or direct contact. But most insects (and ticks I suppose) do detoxify pyrethrin compounds, and so if they get a limited dose, can clean it out of their systems.

Here's the company that we have used to "professionally" treat work clothing - https://www.insectshield.com/pages/inse ... ur-clothes.

But most of our staff now just soak-treat their own clothing following procedures like you find here - https://sectionhiker.com/permethrin-soak-method-guide/



john

Permethrin acts on neurons. It interferes with sodium channels to disrupt the function of neurons, and causes muscles to spasm, culminating in paralysis and death. It is not a carcinogen. I have never used it because I am not out much, but it does not seem too worrisome. Skin absorption is low, about 0.5%.

eurytides wrote: Thu Aug 17, 2023 1:59 pm Permethrin acts on neurons. It interferes with sodium channels to disrupt the function of neurons, and causes muscles to spasm, culminating in paralysis and death. It is not a carcinogen. I have never used it because I am not out much, but it does not seem too worrisome. Skin absorption is low, about 0.5%.

Have ticks/ Lyme crossed the border at the river?

We had zero ticks and zero Lyme on this side until about year 2000. Now it's an epidemic. However, it's also politicized, and the urban NYC-run corrupt state has steadily decreased tick education & funding to punish the more rural Upstate residents who vote against them. They even defunded the free tick/Lyme analysis center this year, despite Lyme increasing.

Permethrin treatment of clothing is also a good way to go if you're collecting/working in malaria endemic areas.

Cabintom wrote: Thu Aug 17, 2023 5:08 pm Permethrin treatment of clothing is also a good way to go if you're collecting/working in malaria endemic areas.

How does it impact exposed skin like hands and face?

I haven't picked up a tick with my Permathrin clothing, though certainly they could get on my hands, face, neck.


Having had malaria thrice, this is good info.

Chuck wrote: Thu Aug 17, 2023 2:54 pm

eurytides wrote: Thu Aug 17, 2023 1:59 pm Permethrin acts on neurons. It interferes with sodium channels to disrupt the function of neurons, and causes muscles to spasm, culminating in paralysis and death. It is not a carcinogen. I have never used it because I am not out much, but it does not seem too worrisome. Skin absorption is low, about 0.5%.

Have ticks/ Lyme crossed the border at the river?

We had zero ticks and zero Lyme on this side until about year 2000. Now it's an epidemic. However, it's also politicized, and the urban NYC-run corrupt state has steadily decreased tick education & funding to punish the more rural Upstate residents who vote against them. They even defunded the free tick/Lyme analysis center this year, despite Lyme increasing.

Not quite an epidemic here, but certainly increasing in recent years. It’s been in the news especially the last 2 years.

Chuck wrote: Thu Aug 17, 2023 5:14 pm
How does it impact exposed skin like hands and face?

I haven't picked up a tick with my Permathrin clothing, though certainly they could get on my hands, face, neck.

Having had malaria thrice, this is good info.

Yeah, exposed skin is still a potential issue. You can combine with repellent. Add malaria prophylaxis on top of that and you should be covered.

Am I the only one that permathrin treats my insect drawers?

Just to be clear, the spelling is permethrin with 2 E's.

I have edited the subject accordingly.

Adam.

EdTomologist wrote: Sun Aug 20, 2023 10:20 pm Am I the only one that permathrin treats my insect drawers?

What do you use to treat the drawers and how do you apply it?

I suspect that permethrin would be a much safer option than PDCB or Vapona.

Adam.