Papilio memnon ♀ from S Sumatra

[Leonard187]

A specimen of female Papilio memnon from S Sumatra. Is it ssp. anceus? It is really attractive for the white patch on forewings instead of red or yellow ones, and I have not seen it before.

QQ截图20230708131143.jpg (135.09 KiB) Viewed 581 times

QQ截图20230708131156.jpg (68.01 KiB) Viewed 581 times

[adamcotton]

Yes, this should be ssp. anceus, but I have not seen specimens that mimic Losaria coon, with yellow markings, before. In the north of Sumatra this tailed form mimics Losaria doubledayi, and is red rather than yellow. In the central part of the island the tailed form is rarer, but the specimens I have from W Sumatra are red. The white triangular base to the forewings is frequently seen in ssp. anceus among normal females with a red base, unlike other subspecies.

Here are my tailless females from West Sumatra, where you can see a form with white forewing base:

anceus tailless females.jpg (475.33 KiB) Viewed 559 times

Where in S. Sumatra was this specimen caught?

Losaria coon reaches southern Sumatra (ssp. palembanganus), so I suppose the tailed form of ssp. anceus from that area would be yellow, rather than red.

Interestingly the tailed form of ssp.memnon from Java which mimics Losaria coon can have either a yellow or red triangle at the base of the forewings.

Adam.

[adamcotton]

I just checked my papered material, and I have several more tailed females from both West and South Sumatra (Lampung). I tried to see the colour of the triangle at the base of the forewings, and the specimens with yellow markings seem to have a red (West) or yellow (South) triangle, not white, but it is rather difficult to be sure with wings closed. I really must spread them and find out. Interestingly the papered specimens from West Sumatra included ones with yellow hindwings even though Losaria coon does not occur there. Mind you, the red Losaria doubledayi does not get that far south either.

Adam.

[Leonard187]

Yes, this should be ssp. anceus, but I have not seen specimens that mimic Losaria coon, with yellow markings, before. In the north of Sumatra this tailed form mimics Losaria doubledayi, and is red rather than yellow. In the central part of the island the tailed form is rarer, but the specimens I have from W Sumatra are red. The white triangular base to the forewings is frequently seen in ssp. anceus among normal females with a red base, unlike other subspecies.

Here are my tailless females from West Sumatra, where you can see a form with white forewing base:
anceus tailless females.jpg

Where in S. Sumatra was this specimen caught?

Losaria coon reaches southern Sumatra (ssp. palembanganus), so I suppose the tailed form of ssp. anceus from that area would be yellow, rather than red.

Interestingly the tailed form of ssp.memnon from Java which mimics Losaria coon can have either a yellow or red triangle at the base of the forewings.

Adam.

Thanks for your reply Adam，This specimen belongs to my friend, and it was purchased with the label only sighed “S Sumatra” without any other details >_<。It is very interesting that individuals with different phenotype based on mimicry to different models. Recently I am reading Clark's article about Papilio memnon published in 1968. I still have a question, tailed female of ssp. agenor is called f. distantianus, so what about tailed female of the other subspecies？do they also named f. distantianus？Thank you.

Leonard

[Leonard187]

I just checked my papered material, and I have several more tailed females from both West and South Sumatra (Lampung). I tried to see the colour of the triangle at the base of the forewings, and the specimens with yellow markings seem to have a red (West) or yellow (South) triangle, not white, but it is rather difficult to be sure with wings closed. I really must spread them and find out. Interestingly the papered specimens from West Sumatra included ones with yellow hindwings even though Losaria coon does not occur there. Mind you, the red Losaria doubledayi does not get that far south either.

Adam.

So tailed females can also be found where no Losaria species distributed, could they mimic the other kind of toxic models? such as Pachliopta aristolochiae (model of Papilio polyte) there?

[adamcotton]

Thanks for your reply Adam，This specimen belongs to my friend, and it was purchased with the label only sighed “S Sumatra” without any other details >_<。It is very interesting that individuals with different phenotype based on mimicry to different models. Recently I am reading Clark's article about Papilio memnon published in 1968. I still have a question, tailed female of ssp. agenor is called f. distantianus, so what about tailed female of the other subspecies？do they also named f. distantianus？Thank you.

Leonard

The tailed form of Papilio memnon anceus is called f. butis Jordan, 1909, and the equivalent form of ssp. memnon from Java is called f. achates Sulzer, 1776.

Note that f. distantianus now belongs to a separate species Papilio agenor which was separated from P. memnon by Condamine et al. 2023.
See:
viewtopic.php?t=930

In any case it is not advisable to apply the same form name across different subspecies, never mind species as is now the case.

When I was a student (long ago) I used to discuss Papilionidae with Sir Cyril Clarke. His papers on hybridisation and genetics of various butterfly species were a real breakthrough, even though the taxonomy has changed a lot since then. He published a second paper on the genetics of P. memnon in 1971, which is also worth reading.

Adam.

[adamcotton]

So tailed females can also be found where no Losaria species distributed, could they mimic the other kind of toxic models? such as Pachliopta aristolochiae (model of Papilio polyte) there?

The Pachliopta from Sumatra is a separate species to aristolochiae from mainland SE Asia, Pachliopta antiphus, ssp. acuta, which importantly is all black with small red submarginal spots on the hindwing underside, so cannot really be considered a model for the tailed form of P. memnon anceus. Probably it is more a case of the genes being present in the population, so they are occasionally expressed in areas where there is no model. The tailed female is rarer than the various tailless forms in West Sumatra, but presumably commoner where there is a Losaria model in the north and south of the island. The tailless forms of ssp. anceus mimic Atrophaneura nox and A. hageni.

Adam.

[Leonard187]

The tailed form of Papilio memnon anceus is called f. butis Jordan, 1909, and the equivalent form of ssp. memnon from Java is called f. achates Sulzer, 1776.

Note that f. distantianus now belongs to a separate species Papilio agenor which was separated from P. memnon by Condamine et al. 2023.
See:
viewtopic.php?t=930

In any case it is not advisable to apply the same form name across different subspecies, never mind species as is now the case.

When I was a student (long ago) I used to discuss Papilionidae with Sir Cyril Clarke. His papers on hybridisation and genetics of various butterfly species were a real breakthrough, even though the taxonomy has changed a lot since then. He published a second paper on the genetics of P. memnon in 1971, which is also worth reading.

Adam.

Thank you very much and taxonomy of butterflies is really confused to me because I am a newcomer as amateur. There are so much to learn for me. May I find sth about ssp and form about P. memnon and P. polyte or even subgenus Menelaides, systemeticlly? Or just get them from separate literature? I also find out the article of Sir Clarke published in 1971 and I will read it during my holiday. Thx for your recommendation.

[adamcotton]

I assume 'sth' must mean 'something', it took me a while to realise what you were asking as I have never seen that combination of letters before.

It is not easy to find information without consulting a large range of literature and original descriptions. I have spent very many years working on these names. A good starting point for species currently placed in subgenus Menelaides is Jordan (1908-09) Papilio, in Seitz vol. 9 Indo-Australian Butterflies (not the correct full citation) (available online here https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/ite ... 9/mode/1up), but of course many changes have been made since then. Sometimes I have made lists available in posts on Insectnet or the Insect Collectors' Forum (https://collector-secret.proboards.com/). Searches for particular species in both forums may help, and including the archive of the old Insectnet forum (link at top of this page).

Since you appear to be in China you will be happy to hear that I am currently working on editing a very large manuscript after peer review which discusses Papilionidae of Yunnan. Hopefully this will be accepted for publication soon, and when it is I will post the news and download link on Insectnet. This paper includes synonymy of the various species found in Yunnan, which covers many of the Chinese species and subspecies.

Adam.

[Leonard187]

I assume 'sth' must mean 'something', it took me a while to realise what you were asking as I have never seen that combination of letters before.

It is not easy to find information without consulting a large range of literature and original descriptions. I have spent very many years working on these names. A good starting point for species currently placed in subgenus Menelaides is Jordan (1908-09) Papilio, in Seitz vol. 9 Indo-Australian Butterflies (not the correct full citation) (available online here https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/ite ... 9/mode/1up), but of course many changes have been made since then. Sometimes I have made lists available in posts on Insectnet or the Insect Collectors' Forum (https://collector-secret.proboards.com/). Searches for particular species in both forums may help, and including the archive of the old Insectnet forum (link at top of this page).

Since you appear to be in China you will be happy to hear that I am currently working on editing a very large manuscript after peer review which discusses Papilionidae of Yunnan. Hopefully this will be accepted for publication soon, and when it is I will post the news and download link on Insectnet. This paper includes synonymy of the various species found in Yunnan, which covers many of the Chinese species and subspecies.

Adam.

I am sorry to trouble you so much for I sometimes use this irregular abbreviation 'sth' instead of 'something'. Thank you for your kind introduction and recommendation, and it will be very very helpful to me ^0^
I am looking forward to your work very much and I cannot waiting to read it ^0^. With many thanks for your kind help.