Collecting in Vietnam

[nikiahloch]

Hi, I'm going to Vietnam in May and I was just curious, is it safe to just send the speciems I collect back to the U.S in the mail? Instead of going through the hassle of bringing them in luggage and dealing with customs

[kevinkk]

It may be safe, but it's not legal to send insect material of any sort through the mail without a permit, especially from overseas. That includes sending
material to other countries from the USA. I've already had that argument at the post office.
I've thought that using the mail would be a good option while out of the USA, but it's still smuggling.
The few exceptions are papered natives, or non-native deadstock already here, or the few native ubiquitous
species as living material.

[Cassidinae]

is it safe to just send the speciems I collect back to the U.S in the mail? Instead of going through the hassle of bringing them in luggage and dealing with customs

Officially, the export of insects from Vietnam is banned.

-edited by admin- "Be careful with what you write on a public forum".

[Chuck]

In short: AFTER obtaining export approval (paperwork) from VN, you need to:
1. Have a USFWS import/ export license
2. File a form 3-177 with the import into USA and pay for an inspection

You can do #2 two ways:
1. via post
2. Schedule an inspection upon arrival at a USFWS-designated airport

#2 is actually safer, since they generally conduct the inspection under your watchful eye. If they process by post, then it may not be handled so carefully. You can also avoid some level of ignorance "no, that's not an Ornithoptera, it's a Pierid. Not everything is an Ornithoptera."

Sending specimens via mail without license and 3-177 is unlawful, no matter which country of origin. Doing so to avoid costs and/ or oversight is smuggling, and is not taken lightly.

Further note for travellers: Customs (not USFWS) may search to see what you're importing for duty purposes. So many travellers play games and mail the receipts ahead, tear them up, etc then import three $10,000 watches as personal goods. That's what gets people in trouble. The duty on most things is so trivial, just declare the value. If it's under a few hundred $$ in duty most Customs officials just waive you through, it's not worth their time. Customs also looks for bootleg items (purses, jackets, etc.) and those they will take.

And about Vietnam: VN was the hotbed of Sapphires (and rubies in Thailand) but in both cases they've been largely tapped out, so what you see in stores are lab made. The Hmong outfits and jewelry you see these days are reproductions, they are not original/ antique- that ship sailed 15 years ago. Wood carvings and such are, like butterflies, USFWS items.

[kevinkk]

These topics are always interesting.
So then- the seller{s} currently using eBay and located/shipping
from Vietnam are illegal? Assuming I understand the thread correctly?
Interesting.

[Chuck]

is it safe to just send the speciems I collect back to the U.S in the mail? Instead of going through the hassle of bringing them in luggage and dealing with customs

Officially, the export of insects from Vietnam is banned.

I am always suspect of broad, unsupported statements, and a quick google search yet again proves the statement wrong.

As with most all countries, trade in wildlife is controlled by a framework of protective laws, caveats, and bureaucracy.

These topics are always interesting.
So then- the seller{s} currently using eBay and located/shipping
from Vietnam are illegal? Assuming I understand the thread correctly?
Interesting.

Who knows? There are legal methods for export, though I don't know the details. Whether any given seller conforms or not is very hard to determine. You can always ask to start- though I personally take a lot of convincing.

Some years ago with a plethora of "rare" and highly desirable species coming out of China I did spend some time investigating. Oddly enough, the Chinese laws were written so broadly concerning authority to approve exports that just about any petty town Communist party leader was an "authority" and as such, a shocking number of Chinese sellers were, in fact, in compliance. When it came to public light that Chinese were exporting "super endangered" Tienopalpus and such, the Chinese government made a lot of noise, blaming small-scale lawbreakers but that was really just a charade to satisfy the greenies.

[nikiahloch]

is it safe to just send the speciems I collect back to the U.S in the mail? Instead of going through the hassle of bringing them in luggage and dealing with customs

Officially, the export of insects from Vietnam is banned.

-edited by admin- "Be careful with what you write on a public forum".

I know export from Vietnam isn't banned. I purchase insects from private dealers all the time over there and they always show up

[nikiahloch]

It may be safe, but it's not legal to send insect material of any sort through the mail without a permit, especially from overseas. That includes sending
material to other countries from the USA. I've already had that argument at the post office.
I've thought that using the mail would be a good option while out of the USA, but it's still smuggling.
The few exceptions are papered natives, or non-native deadstock already here, or the few native ubiquitous
species as living material.

Well, I do know that there are no permits required for the impost of dead insects in the US. I've seen this information on the USDA website

[nikiahloch]

In short: AFTER obtaining export approval (paperwork) from VN, you need to:
1. Have a USFWS import/ export license
2. File a form 3-177 with the import into USA and pay for an inspection

You can do #2 two ways:
1. via post
2. Schedule an inspection upon arrival at a USFWS-designated airport

#2 is actually safer, since they generally conduct the inspection under your watchful eye. If they process by post, then it may not be handled so carefully. You can also avoid some level of ignorance "no, that's not an Ornithoptera, it's a Pierid. Not everything is an Ornithoptera."

Sending specimens via mail without license and 3-177 is unlawful, no matter which country of origin. Doing so to avoid costs and/ or oversight is smuggling, and is not taken lightly.

Further note for travellers: Customs (not USFWS) may search to see what you're importing for duty purposes. So many travellers play games and mail the receipts ahead, tear them up, etc then import three $10,000 watches as personal goods. That's what gets people in trouble. The duty on most things is so trivial, just declare the value. If it's under a few hundred $$ in duty most Customs officials just waive you through, it's not worth their time. Customs also looks for bootleg items (purses, jackets, etc.) and those they will take.

And about Vietnam: VN was the hotbed of Sapphires (and rubies in Thailand) but in both cases they've been largely tapped out, so what you see in stores are lab made. The Hmong outfits and jewelry you see these days are reproductions, they are not original/ antique- that ship sailed 15 years ago. Wood carvings and such are, like butterflies, USFWS items.

I sent an email to the Vietnam Department of Agriculture and still haven't heard back from them and that was 8 months ago, I leave the 30th of this month. I've contacted the US Department of Agriculture and even talked to someone and they said I don't need permits for importing dead insects in the US. I think at this point its a matter of hoping for the best.

[Chuck]

I sent an email to the Vietnam Department of Agriculture and still haven't heard back from them and that was 8 months ago, I leave the 30th of this month. I've contacted the US Department of Agriculture and even talked to someone and they said I don't need permits for importing dead insects in the US. I think at this point its a matter of hoping for the best.

Most foreign organizations don't have or won't take the time to respond. They leave it to you and/or your local agent to arrange.

USDA has nothing to do with dead insects, they only oversee live insects. Dead insects fall under USFWS.

One does not want to run afoul of Vietnamese officials. Getting caught on the way out with dead insects and no paperwork is going to be, at the least, expensive.

If one elects to "wing it", which I have as sometimes it's the only option, the best approach upon arriving in a foreign country is to find a local who knows the laws and officials, and can help get a permit. Even better is to make contact with a knowledgeable person in VN BEFORE going. Hoping to do it yourself in-country may not be effective, and will cost a fortune in bribe money.

[Cassidinae]

I know export from Vietnam isn't banned. I purchase insects from private dealers all the time over there and they always show up

How it is in Vietnam I can't publish here The only positive thing about Vietnam (as far as insect exports are concerned) is that the law enforcement associated with it is not as radical as in, say, India, Ceylon, or Turkey.

[nikiahloch]

I sent an email to the Vietnam Department of Agriculture and still haven't heard back from them and that was 8 months ago, I leave the 30th of this month. I've contacted the US Department of Agriculture and even talked to someone and they said I don't need permits for importing dead insects in the US. I think at this point its a matter of hoping for the best.

Most foreign organizations don't have or won't take the time to respond. They leave it to you and/or your local agent to arrange.

USDA has nothing to do with dead insects, they only oversee live insects. Dead insects fall under USFWS.

One does not want to run afoul of Vietnamese officials. Getting caught on the way out with dead insects and no paperwork is going to be, at the least, expensive.

If one elects to "wing it", which I have as sometimes it's the only option, the best approach upon arriving in a foreign country is to find a local who knows the laws and officials, and can help get a permit. Even better is to make contact with a knowledgeable person in VN BEFORE going. Hoping to do it yourself in-country may not be effective, and will cost a fortune in bribe money.

Very true. I did talk to the USFW and they said I may need a 3177 form. To have one just in case but most of the time there's not permits required and most will let you walk through as long as they are dead and you aren't bringing endangered or protected species

[Chuck]

but most of the time there's not permits required and most will let you walk through as long as they are dead and you aren't bringing endangered or protected species

Who will let you walk through, and where? Is that after or without informing in/out customs?

[nikiahloch]

but most of the time there's not permits required and most will let you walk through as long as they are dead and you aren't bringing endangered or protected species

Who will let you walk through, and where? Is that after or without informing in/out customs?

When your at the airport. If you have to go to customs. The person I talked to with USFW said that in most cases. They will just ask if they are dead or alive. This is a topic they deal with all the time, that's what they said to me.

[adamcotton]

A US visitor once told me that 'according to the law' dead insects for personal use can be brought into the US in accompanied luggage. Possibly the owner needs to file a 3-177 after arrival home. Apparently the law for luggage is different to parcels, according to the visitor.

Adam.

[adamcotton]

I don't know if the US law has changed in the past 17 years.

Adam.

[Chuck]

When your at the airport. If you have to go to customs. The person I talked to with USFW said that in most cases. They will just ask if they are dead or alive. This is a topic they deal with all the time, that's what they said to me.

Which airport? Who is "they"?

Anything USFWS tells you is worthless. Get it in writing, and identified as to who wrote it. USFWS personnel once told me an import was OK, but apparently it wasn't, and the only thing that saved me was that I had kept copious notes- names, dates, times and exact words.

GO READ THE LAWS. This is so stupid we always go round-and-round here with "somebody said."


The other question is Vietnam wildlife export laws.

[nikiahloch]

When your at the airport. If you have to go to customs. The person I talked to with USFW said that in most cases. They will just ask if they are dead or alive. This is a topic they deal with all the time, that's what they said to me.

Which airport? Who is "they"?

Anything USFWS tells you is worthless. Get it in writing, and identified as to who wrote it. USFWS personnel once told me an import was OK, but apparently it wasn't, and the only thing that saved me was that I had kept copious notes- names, dates, times and exact words.

GO READ THE LAWS. This is so stupid we always go round-and-round here with "somebody said."


The other question is Vietnam wildlife export laws.

The airport in the US. I'm flying back from Vietnam to California. I live in the United States. "They" is the custom officials at the airport. I have an email from the agent that told me this info. So I have plenty of evidence of what they said. I did read the laws. I just decided to actually talk to someone about it.