Agrias (hybrids)

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Trehopr1
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Agrias (hybrids)

Post by Trehopr1 »

Here is a topic touched upon before on the old (archived)
forum. There are now a fair number of these offered by
various sellers and dealers on a weekly basis. Initially, some
4 to 5 years ago when they first began showing up they
were (somewhat) pricey and spectacular "one-offs" took
off from that price point.

Image

However, nowadays in just a short span of time they have
dropped considerably in pricing; thus, making them much
more affordable to those of more modest means.

There can be considerable color variations present in some
of these hybrids. Males offer far bolder colors and generally
MORE coverage of those colors on the wings.

Many are sold as (papered) stock so, in this regard you really
have to have your "game-on" when your working with them.
This means that these are generally NOT meant for novice
preparators/hobbyists. It has been remarked by members here
that these are (sometimes) dispatched using chemicals which
really "stiffen" them up BEYOND their already typically trying
preparation.

However, some offerings out there are posted as spread/mounted
specimens. Here, the buyer/hobbyist can clearly view the specimen
offered, can examine the nuances of its variation, and can decide
if the preparation is professional in appearance.

The above specimens have been acquired by me over these last
3 months. I'm unsure as to their (parentage) and yet I really got
them more-so for their uncompromising "bling".

All arrived (spread) and although I probably paid for the priviledge
of their work-up --- I am thoroughly happy with the outcome !

To purists of this group these may be regarded as "baubles" of little
natural/scientific value. Yet, some of us may never afford actual
(natural) hybrids or expensive subspecies or forms. So, in this way
these "produced" hybrid offerings still allow purists to do their
thing (at their level); whilst, other modest enthusiasts can still
enjoy the "occasional" trappings of extravagant desire.
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wollastoni
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Re: Agrias (hybrids)

Post by wollastoni »

Yes, these hybrids are now mass-produced in Peruvian farms and now cause some issue to people studying Agrias.

- Some "new" taxa are in fact "farmed hybrids" or "farmed forms : a recent example is Agrias hewitsonius elata, Séraphin 2016 : https://agrias-butterflies.com/agrias-h ... ius-elata/

- Some specimens must escape from farms and pollute local populations.

- When a new form appears on the market, it is sometimes hard to be sure if it is a natural local form or a new hybrid... Peruvian sellers being very clever in inventing stories. For example, a recent rare form of Agrias phalcidon excelsior (which lives in Tonantins, Brazil) was in fact a Peruvian-produced hybrid between Agrias phalcidon excelsior and Agrias hewitsonius stuarti from Peru. The label said Tonantins, but it was produced in Peruvian farms.

One tip : if a seller sells a lot of A1 fresh specimens, the species is now farmed. In the wild, most Agrias have flight damage.

This said, these hybrids are gorgeous, some can be found in the wild.

We will add an "Hybrid" section on the Agrias website later in 2023 to help people understand the parent species of each hybrids. Note that it is not easy as you can think, when Peruvian farmers start mixing everything together...
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Re: Agrias (hybrids)

Post by Jshuey »

I still find it hard to believe that people call these Prepona "Agrias", given how easily they hybridize (not to mention the morphological and genetic studies that originally synonymized the genus).

John
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Re: Agrias (hybrids)

Post by Chuck »

Jshuey wrote: Thu Sep 07, 2023 2:47 pm I still find it hard to believe that people call these Prepona "Agrias", given how easily they hybridize (not to mention the morphological and genetic studies that originally synonymized the genus).

John
Curmudgeon.

Agrias are more popular and more expensive than Prepona. Nobody wants to have a collection of rare Prepona.

Plus, older folks (like me) tend not to want to change. As far as I'm concerned, it's still BMNH, it's still Amphion nessus, it's still Stanleyville, it's still a Gypsy moth. Just not going to change.
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Re: Agrias (hybrids)

Post by wollastoni »

John : never heard about subgenus ? ;)
All Prepona are not Agrias, but Agrias are Prepona.

+ there are some clear morphological, behaviour and evolutionnary differences between both subgenera as recognized in the Synonymisation paper.

Morphological differences : obvious, that's why they have long been seen as 2 different genera
Behaviour : few differences but in the field you will see plenty of Prepona, but nearly no Agrias
Evolution : Agrias are involved in mimicry rings, unlike Prepona. That's why Agrias have so many local forms, unlike Prepona
Evolution : Agrias are a recent "divergence" from other Prepona as you can see in the Synonymisation paper.
Image
(Agrias are all in the lower branch on this document from aedon to hewitsonius)

As said by Keith Wilmott himself, he could have splitted Prepona in several genera too but thought it was more convenient to synonymise them all.

+ I would add that several specialists of the Agrias (sub)genus are not at all convinced that they should have been lumped.

My personal point of view : it is a subgenus. :)

so call them as you like. I have no problem when people call Ornithoptera priamus a Troides priamus...
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Re: Agrias (hybrids)

Post by Jshuey »

If you believe the above cladogram and go the subgenus route - the cladogram would indicate that Prepona praeneste would also be a member of the Agrias subgenus. The alternative is that it would be one of 5 or six other subgenera within Prepona...

Plus recognizing Agrias as a subgenus (while not regognizing the 5-6 other subgenera) makes all the other Prepona lineages paraphyletic (they don't include all the taxa that cascade downward through the evolutionary tree) - that's why they are solid Preponas..., whether people like it or not.

Just sayin -
John
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Re: Agrias (hybrids)

Post by wollastoni »

Indeed several people see praeneste as an Agrias. It is the only one who makes natural hybrids with Agrias in the wild (« sarumani »).

and of course, there would be several subgenera (or genera depending how you split them). As explained by Willmott
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Re: Agrias (hybrids)

Post by mothman55 »

These hybrids have been showing up on EBAY, gotta admit they are beautiful, and so I bought this one.
Screenshot 2023-09-07 at 4.26.30 PM.png
Screenshot 2023-09-07 at 4.26.30 PM.png (296.71 KiB) Viewed 3498 times
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Re: Agrias (hybrids)

Post by Trehopr1 »

Superb specimen and a great find ! 🎉☺️
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wollastoni
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Re: Agrias (hybrids)

Post by wollastoni »

mothman55 wrote: Thu Sep 07, 2023 8:37 pm These hybrids have been showing up on EBAY, gotta admit they are beautiful, and so I bought this one.Screenshot 2023-09-07 at 4.26.30 PM.png
Image
For info, this wonderful beast is a man-produced hybrid between Agrias claudina lugens x Agrias hewitsonius lachaumei.
2 Peruvian species.
It has never been found in the wild as far as I know.
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Re: Agrias (hybrids)

Post by livingplanet3 »

wollastoni wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2023 1:04 pm For info, this wonderful beast is a man-produced hybrid between Agrias claudina lugens x Agrias hewitsonius lachaumei.
2 Peruvian species.
It has never been found in the wild.
Here is a pair that I purchased of this hybrid, late last year -

https://forum.insectnet.com/viewtopic. ... rias#p4139
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Re: Agrias (hybrids)

Post by Cabintom »

Chuck wrote: Thu Sep 07, 2023 2:52 pm it's still Stanleyville
If you ever have the chance of visiting Kisangani, you'd quickly see that it's definitely not "still Stanleyville"! :)
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Re: Agrias (hybrids)

Post by wollastoni »

Indeed.
Sekou Touré said : "We prefer poverty in freedom to opulence in slavery"... it seems, they have poverty and economic slavery...

What happens in Mayotte vs Comoro is a sad but meaningful example.
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