Rare Oak Species Found

Off-topic discussions. Be nice. No politics/religions/insults (as on the rest of the forum).
Post Reply
User avatar
58chevy
Meek
Meek
Reactions:
Posts: 376
Joined: Mon May 23, 2022 5:58 pm
Location: Houston, TX USA
United States of America

Rare Oak Species Found

Post by 58chevy »

User avatar
livingplanet3
Premium Member - 2024
Premium Member - 2024
Reactions:
Posts: 584
Joined: Tue May 24, 2022 4:55 pm
United States of America

Re: Rare Oak Species Found

Post by livingplanet3 »

Many thanks for the link - really hoping that they will be able to propagate a lot of new trees from that lone survivor.

It's remarkable how some tree species can continue to hang on to life long after a region has become much more arid than it previously was. Once such example is the isolated population of Saharan cypress (Cupressus dupreziana) in the Tassili n'Ajjer mountains (Algeria). Most of these trees are over 2,000 years old and are relics of a considerably wetter climate in North Africa, and today survive by tapping groundwater in an area that now only gets around 30 mm of rainfall per year -

https://uk.inaturalist.org/taxa/136175- ... dupreziana

Image
Chuck
Premium Member - 2024
Premium Member - 2024
Reactions:
Posts: 886
Joined: Mon May 23, 2022 2:30 pm
Solomon Islands

Re: Rare Oak Species Found

Post by Chuck »

Amazing. Great read, thanks.

The botanists are fortunate it can’t fly away.
User avatar
adamcotton
Global Moderators
Global Moderators
Reactions:
Posts: 743
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2022 12:24 pm
Location: Thailand
Thailand

Re: Rare Oak Species Found

Post by adamcotton »

livingplanet3 wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 7:21 pm Most of these trees are over 2,000 years old and are relics of a considerably wetter climate in North Africa, and today survive by tapping groundwater in an area that now only gets around 30 mm of rainfall per year
Presumably any seedlings that germinate cannot survive since their roots will not grow deep enough in time to reach the water source.

Adam.

PS. I hope they really can propagate the oak too!
AZ-MOTH-er
Junior Member
Junior Member
Reactions:
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed May 25, 2022 7:51 pm
United States of America

Re: Rare Oak Species Found

Post by AZ-MOTH-er »

Yeah, I know, I know...what a killjoy I am

Having worked as a botanist for 17 years specializing in woody trees and shrubs, particularly Quercus in NW Mexico, I read with great interest the article about the rediscovery of Quercus tardifolia.

There are two problems with this finding...

1. Quercus is known as being promiscuous... meaning different species hybridize prolifically, constantly and back cross, too. A genetic survey from a few years ago in Sonora, Mexico demonstrated that it is difficult to find a wild tree of 'pure' genetic ancestry. In fact, hybrids of more than two parents were the rule. We find anomalous oaks all over Arizona and NW Mexico (with at least 21 species in Sonora alone, taxonomy can be complicated) that we can't quite ascribe to any known species. These are almost always lone, single trees, rarely small groups of trees.

2. That location where the tardifolia was found is Big Bend National Park-- right on the international border with Mexico. There are a few species found in the park that have not been found anywhere else in the world, although one can quite confidently presume that the balance of the populations will be found in Mexico. See for example the spectacular sphingid, Adhemarius blanchardorum, which has not yet been located in Mexico and may even be conspecific with A. globifer, a species that is only known from Mexico.

So, I'm thinking that it is extremely likely that either this tree is an outlier representative of a species that is extant in the neighboring Mexican states of Chihuahua and Coahuila, or it is a hybrid with such a species.

The field people who found this plant must be aware of this.

Time for the 'wah-wah' trombones
User avatar
nomihoudai
Junior Member
Junior Member
Reactions:
Posts: 39
Joined: Mon May 23, 2022 10:22 am
Netherlands

Re: Rare Oak Species Found

Post by nomihoudai »

AZ-MOTH-er wrote: 1. Quercus is known as being promiscuous... ...The field people who found this plant must be aware of this.
Yes they are. At the end of the article they mention that they want to find out what the true status of this tree is.
AZ-MOTH-er wrote: 2. That location where the tardifolia was found is Big Bend National Park-- right on the international border with Mexico. ...
So, I'm thinking that it is extremely likely that either this tree is an outlier representative of a species that is extant in the neighboring Mexican states of Chihuahua and Coahuila, or it is a hybrid with such a species.
Google throws out that the species exists in Mexico. The article specifically mentions that this is the only member for the COUNTRY. It looks like the species wasn't globally extinct (which I thought when first reading the article, I can still remember) but it's rather a case of national occurrence. The only importance therefore probably only is to not have to deal with import/export laws and the Nagoya protocol. Given this the article feels a bit exaggerated to me which is a pity. I also see that the study was done by NatureServe which has been mentioned before on here.
AZ-MOTH-er wrote: Time for the 'wah-wah' trombones
I don't fully understand what you are trying to say.
Lepidoptera distribution maps: lepimap.click
AZ-MOTH-er
Junior Member
Junior Member
Reactions:
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed May 25, 2022 7:51 pm
United States of America

Re: Rare Oak Species Found

Post by AZ-MOTH-er »

I realize that most of the following information is probably of no interest whatsoever to anyone on insectnet.com, so I'll cover the last comment by Nomihoudai first.

The "wah-wah trombones" is a sound effect that has been used in films, radio and television programs for about 70 years in the USA to indicate major disappointment, or in current parlance, a fail.

Go here to listen to the sound effect

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... t4pOkCA4Bx

* * *

I don't believe anyone in the article said that the oak tree mentioned in the article could be the very tree from which the type material was drawn. So, I looked it up on SEINet.

Besides the original collections from 1932-33 by C. MUELLER which represents the type material, there are collections from 1936, 1947, 1969, 1991, 1996, 1997, 2016, and 2018. The collections from 2018 are apparently by the group mentioned in article that have rediscovered this oak species

"Quercus tardifolia was reported from Mexico (Coahuila) (A. M. Powell 1988), but I have not seen the specimens. It should be expected in the ranges (e.g., Sierra del Carmen) adjacent to the Big Bend area. This distinctive species is apparently quite infrequent, only two small clumps being known from the Chisos Mountains (C. H. Muller 1951). Recent efforts to locate Quercus tardifolia have not been successful (M. Powell, pers. comm.). Its status is also in question; Muller and K. C. Nixon (pers. comm.) think that it might be a hybrid between Quercus gravesii and Q . hypoxantha." -- Kevin Nixon in Flora North America, V. 3

Part of the original collection (Quercus tardifolia) by Cornelius Mueller from 1933.
fileget.jpeg
fileget.jpeg (569.48 KiB) Viewed 3186 times
A collection from 1969, originally identified as "Quercus gravesii" with the notation "common along ravines below main campground"
BRIT251780_med.jpg
BRIT251780_med.jpg (356.84 KiB) Viewed 3186 times

So, as usual, reality is always more complicated than a magazine or internet article makes it out to be! And NatureServe! That organization is not to be trusted
User avatar
nomihoudai
Junior Member
Junior Member
Reactions:
Posts: 39
Joined: Mon May 23, 2022 10:22 am
Netherlands

Re: Rare Oak Species Found

Post by nomihoudai »

Thank you for explaining.

I would say that plants and botany are of interest to people on insectnet. After all insects feed on plants and are very specific in what they need. The best entomologists I have met have had incredible field knowledge in plants.

I had been to Chisos Mountains. I didn't go downhill from the camp ground as the area is very steep. I walked uphill where I saw a nice specimen of a Mexican Jay. The whole Big Bend area is surreal at times. It's larger than my country of origin (which I agree is a very small country).

I also like oaks. Texas is a prime locality for global oak diversity. Here in Europe we have Phyllonorycter that feed on oak. I always wondered if the US had something similar. I would from time to time look at oaks but not find any leaf mines. I was wondering if the South is too hot for microleps, there was also few Lycaenidae around. I never took the time to pursue this in depth as I was way too busy with my job and life. Now I do not live in Texas any more.
Lepidoptera distribution maps: lepimap.click
AZ-MOTH-er
Junior Member
Junior Member
Reactions:
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed May 25, 2022 7:51 pm
United States of America

Re: Rare Oak Species Found

Post by AZ-MOTH-er »

The COUNTY that I live in has a land area larger than Melania Trump's home country, Slovenia.

May I ask, Nomihoudai, what your home country is now?

At times, I have seen leaf mines in oak leaves from Sonora. It is possible these leaf miners are dipterans rather than lepidopterans, however. And many oaks from southwestern North America are exceedingly sclerophyllous (meaning tough leaved). I don't know if that makes a difference. I can tell you these same species have very thick leaves, too. That is possibly a positive thing for leaf miners.
User avatar
nomihoudai
Junior Member
Junior Member
Reactions:
Posts: 39
Joined: Mon May 23, 2022 10:22 am
Netherlands

Re: Rare Oak Species Found

Post by nomihoudai »

I am from Luxembourg, and nowadays I work for a Dutch company.

I also think that the sclerophylly of the Southern oaks is hampering leaf miners. Combined with the hot weather. I always thought that the weather was too hot and dry to keep something as thin and small as a Lycaenid going, completely setting Microleps aside. Live oak, Quercus virginiana is amazing. Their leafs remind me of Laurel. The growth pattern of their trunk and branches is very unique.
Lepidoptera distribution maps: lepimap.click
AZ-MOTH-er
Junior Member
Junior Member
Reactions:
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed May 25, 2022 7:51 pm
United States of America

Re: Rare Oak Species Found

Post by AZ-MOTH-er »

Nomihoudai, I will have to disagree on the heat in southwestern North America limiting the diversity or occurrence of lycaenids. But for someone who lived in Texas, I can understand how you might get this idea. The key is that Arizona and New Mexico, for instance, are very mountainous. And not just that the mountains are higher in elevation in these two states, but that the mountain masses are much greater in these two states. So, you might see that the the highest point in the state of Texas, Guadalupe Peak, is 8,751 feet / 2,667 meters, but the mass of the Guadalupe Mountains is so small that they do not receive the considerable rainfall of the mountains further west. By contrast, the Santa Catalina Mountains near Tucson (highest point at 9,171 ft (2,795 m)) have what is considered Canadian/Hudsonian Zone mixed-conifer forest. It is a totally different environment in these mountains from where most of the human population in these states occurs. So, there are a number of very nice lycaenids here, even in the lowlands. And if you go further south into the state of Sonora, Mexico, even more.

Plus, if we are talking simply about oak feeding lycaenids, there are less tough-leaved oaks--such as Quercus gambelii, a major component of higher elevation oak forests in the Rocky Mountain region. Gambel oak leaves are just the same texture and hardness as white oaks from Europe or the eastern USA.

And so far as other non-oak-feeding species are concerned, there are a number of those here, too. Some which occupy the low desert where it is very, very hot indeed.

Lycaenidae in Pima County, Arizona (from iNaturalist):
20230109_133714.jpg
20230109_133714.jpg (425.15 KiB) Viewed 3125 times


I am a native of California, however. And no state of the USA can match the diversity of Lycaenidae in the coastal mountains where there is a Mediterranean climate.
Post Reply

Create an account or sign in to join the discussion

You need to be a member in order to post a reply

Create an account

Not a member? register to join our community
Members can start their own topics & subscribe to topics
It’s free and only takes a minute

Register

Sign in