Research grants wasted by universities?

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Chuck
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Research grants wasted by universities?

Post by Chuck »

A professional remarked to me that when receiving a grant "the university grabs 2/3 of it anyway"

I don't recall who told me this, otherwise I'd ask him.


Is this true? Can universities simply grab money from research grants?
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Re: Research grants wasted by universities?

Post by DrewAlan »

No, that is not quite how it works. When I apply for a grant, say, for a hundred thousand dollars, the university adds an additional 55% for overhead costs. Thus, the granting agency has to pay $155,000 to the university, out of which I get my $100,000. The university does not take money out of the research scientist's grant. Well, they are not supposed to. I've heard stories about certain places that help themselves to money that belongs to the researcher, but such things are rare.
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Re: Research grants wasted by universities?

Post by eurytides »

Even if the money doesn’t come out of the researcher’s grant, it’s still a waste in the sense that $55k was used for overhead as opposed to actual research. What is the university doing that could warrant such overhead?
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Re: Research grants wasted by universities?

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Paul K
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Re: Research grants wasted by universities?

Post by Paul K »

Overhead=corruption in many government founded institutions.
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Re: Research grants wasted by universities?

Post by Chuck »

Well I'm glad the university doesn't take from the grant itself. Overhead and waste are a completely different topic, far more expansive than grants. But it's interesting to read (thanks Mike) how this works, in theory.
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Re: Research grants wasted by universities?

Post by Jshuey »

eurytides wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 10:17 pm Even if the money doesn’t come out of the researcher’s grant, it’s still a waste in the sense that $55k was used for overhead as opposed to actual research. What is the university doing that could warrant such overhead?
I suppose the research could be conducted in a pup tent or something using hand made equipment. They could dig a pit toilet next to the tent, dig a well for water, and steal electricity from the neighbors. That the researcher could use snail-mail for all correspondence. That they could wait for months for friends to send them copies of papers they want to see (or they could ask the local public library to borrow journals from other public libraries). They could pay cash to all their lab assistants and keep payroll records themselves. That way, none of the money would be wasted - right?

Or the university could do these things in the background, and charge a verified, audited, overhead rate to cover the costs.

As an aside, I work for a non-profit that has modest overhead rates. I just submitted a proposal for conservation work to a program that limits overhead to a maximum of 12%. That means that if we receive this funding, we will have to find over $200k of additional "donor money" to keep the lights on, water running, computers working etc... . Someone has to pay for this stuff.

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Re: Research grants wasted by universities?

Post by Chuck »

No matter what, govt and sponsoring orgs are willing to pay the overhead. So it would be stupid for a university/non-profit to forgo that overhead. If my employer offered me a substantial subsidy for overhead, darned sure I'd take it.

It's a waste of time to discuss govt or uni waste, as there's nothing we can do about it. Nor to question the cost of overhead- give me a university and watch me slash overhead costs- but that will never happen.

Now, defending overhead added to grants- I wonder if overhead for the general slush fund is added to university event tickets, sports arena construction loans, and library books? Of course not. Kinda odd that research grants get tagged, but that's the way it is.

Slightly off topic, my friends at the uni complain that they are pushed to write grant requests and publish papers. Priority #3 is to make sure students feel loved and warm, priority #4 is retention. Teaching the subject matter is way down the list.
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Re: Research grants wasted by universities?

Post by Trehopr1 »

If your friends at the university "whine" about having to write Grant requests and publish papers then what are they there for outside of teaching ?

If you want your students to feel loved and warm tell them to go hug their mother or father....

In my book, when you have a PhD or MS in something then your JOB in life is to disseminate knowledge.

If you work at a university and you achieve the rank of professor then your first job is teaching/guiding students along a career path. Perhaps some universities additionally expect their educators to publish papers or write grants additionally to get (tenure). Maybe they figure you are a educator of "higher learning" so you should be up to the task of occasionally putting out a research paper or Grant.

Same thing with museum curators (more or less); you may not be necessarily educating students but, you are expected AS A JOB to publish papers and write the occasional Grant proposal so something gets done at the museum in terms of collection work. Only the largest and best funded museums here in the US afford one or two permanent technical help. All the rest (if any) are usually Grant based.

Quite frankly, I find it pathetic "human nature" when people who achieve higher education degrees in life feel that they only need to be productive in their 20s and 30s; then once they hit their 40s it's "rocking chair" time for the rest of their life....

Education of others and new discoveries (published in papers) are a "dynamic" of higher education and forward thinking.

That idea should be embraced all of ones life whether you are an educator, a researcher, or a little of both !

Just my humble, albeit strong feelings in this matter.
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Re: Research grants wasted by universities?

Post by eurytides »

Some good points. However, I wouldn’t say there’s no waste in the system…

https://youtu.be/8F9gzQz1Pms
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Re: Research grants wasted by universities?

Post by Jshuey »

eurytides wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 9:33 pm Some good points. However, I wouldn’t say there’s no waste in the system…

https://youtu.be/8F9gzQz1Pms
Note that almost all Springer journals, Nature included, also publish articles for free. Of course, that means that getting copies of the papers cost money. I always go the free route with Springer.

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Re: Research grants wasted by universities?

Post by Chuck »

eurytides wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 9:33 pm Some good points. However, I wouldn’t say there’s no waste in the system…

https://youtu.be/8F9gzQz1Pms


That's funnier than heck.

@jshuey you mean https://www.springeropen.com/journals ? I searched by your surname and came up with seven publications, none of which were authored by you????

Nature? As in https://www.nature.com/ ?

I'm confused, please point me in the right direction.

Getting a bit off topic, as a self-funded citizen scientist without a .edu or .org email, getting papers can be tough. Some sites want me to pay- why do .edu get them for free and .joeaverage does not? Some want access to my email list so they can grab all my contacts- no way. 90% of the time I can find them somewhere else for free, another 5% of the time I can get them from the authors, but 5% seem to be out of reach, hidden behind the academic ivory tower paywall.
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Re: Research grants wasted by universities?

Post by Jshuey »

Chuck wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 2:10 pm
eurytides wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 9:33 pm Some good points. However, I wouldn’t say there’s no waste in the system…

https://youtu.be/8F9gzQz1Pms


That's funnier than heck.

@jshuey you mean https://www.springeropen.com/journals ? I searched by your surname and came up with seven publications, none of which were authored by you????

Nature? As in https://www.nature.com/ ?

I'm confused, please point me in the right direction.

Getting a bit off topic, as a self-funded citizen scientist without a .edu or .org email, getting papers can be tough. Some sites want me to pay- why do .edu get them for free and .joeaverage does not? Some want access to my email list so they can grab all my contacts- no way. 90% of the time I can find them somewhere else for free, another 5% of the time I can get them from the authors, but 5% seem to be out of reach, hidden behind the academic ivory tower paywall.
I have used Insect Conservation" a few times...

Go here for page charges - https://www.springer.com/gp/authors-edi ... 20articles.

How much does it cost to publish in a Springer journal?
  • For the majority of Springer journals, publishing an article is free of charge.
    If a journal requires page charges, you will find them on the journal's springer.com homepage or in its Instructions for Authors.
    Charges might apply e.g. for color figures or over-length articles. The information on these extra costs will also be available from the journal's homepage or its Instructions for Authors.
    Charges for open access articles:
    If you choose to publish an open access article, there will be an Article Processing Charge (APC) to be paid by the author or their funding institution. As a consequence, the article can be freely read, downloaded or distributed from SpringerLink by any internet user.
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