UV and birdwings

Discussion on butterflies, moths and skippers
Post Reply
eurytides
Meek
Meek
Reactions:
Posts: 196
Joined: Tue May 24, 2022 1:36 am
Canada

UV and birdwings

Post by eurytides »

We have had past discussions about UV turning green birdwings blue under artificial conditions. I am curious, does this ever happen in the wild, even slightly? If a green birdwing is a couple of weeks old, does it get a bit blue?
Chuck
Premium Member - 2024
Premium Member - 2024
Reactions:
Posts: 886
Joined: Mon May 23, 2022 2:30 pm
Solomon Islands

Re: UV and birdwings

Post by Chuck »

No. Green Ornithoptera stay green as they age. Dead Ornithoptera stay green.
User avatar
adamcotton
Global Moderators
Global Moderators
Reactions:
Posts: 743
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2022 12:24 pm
Location: Thailand
Thailand

Re: UV and birdwings

Post by adamcotton »

Probably the intensity of UV used by scammers to artificially turn green to blue is much higher than anything that live butterflies would be subjected to in nature. Presumably also the effect is not cumulative.

Adam.
Chuck
Premium Member - 2024
Premium Member - 2024
Reactions:
Posts: 886
Joined: Mon May 23, 2022 2:30 pm
Solomon Islands

Re: UV and birdwings

Post by Chuck »

We've discussed this a number of times, but I don't recall anyone actually having done it, aside from the scammers.

I wonder, how much UV for how long would one need? We can probably get a priamus for $20 shipped; the question is the wavelength and intensity (and cost) of a UV source. I wonder if a priamus next to a 150 (or better 400) MV would work. Or BLB? Most BLB are low intensity/ power.

As I understand it, the now-common marijuana grow operations use high intensity, broad spectrum lights. Anyone know a pot growing operator? Try their lights.

This community has been pretty harsh on sellers of blue Ornithoptera, but reproducing one would be the real clincher. LOL. Then sell it at a profit.
eurytides
Meek
Meek
Reactions:
Posts: 196
Joined: Tue May 24, 2022 1:36 am
Canada

Re: UV and birdwings

Post by eurytides »

I ask because this question was asked on a facebook group and someone said they do turn blue just from the sun’s UV in nature. They even had “examples.” I was dubious. Thought I would ask you guys!
Chuck
Premium Member - 2024
Premium Member - 2024
Reactions:
Posts: 886
Joined: Mon May 23, 2022 2:30 pm
Solomon Islands

Re: UV and birdwings

Post by Chuck »

eurytides wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 8:15 pm I ask because this question was asked on a facebook group and someone said they do turn blue just from the sun’s UV in nature. They even had “examples.” I was dubious. Thought I would ask you guys!
Nope. If you find a dead, worn out priamus, it's still green.

My father has had a priamus on the wall for 40 years. Green.

Nor to victoriae turn blue.

urvilleanus are blue. They stay blue.
User avatar
livingplanet3
Premium Member - 2024
Premium Member - 2024
Reactions:
Posts: 584
Joined: Tue May 24, 2022 4:55 pm
United States of America

Re: UV and birdwings

Post by livingplanet3 »

Chuck wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 8:33 pm ...urvilleanus are blue. They stay blue.
Chuck, I just noticed that your profile states Solomon Islands as your location; do you see O. priamus urvillianus very often there? That's always been one of my favorite Ornithoptera; would be amazing to see living examples.
eurytides
Meek
Meek
Reactions:
Posts: 196
Joined: Tue May 24, 2022 1:36 am
Canada

Re: UV and birdwings

Post by eurytides »

Chuck, the priamus on the wall, was it behind UV blocking glass/plastic?
User avatar
Panacanthus
Premium Member - 2024
Premium Member - 2024
Reactions:
Posts: 113
Joined: Tue May 31, 2022 7:51 pm
United States of America

Re: UV and birdwings

Post by Panacanthus »

In my experience, sunlight will definitely alter the green coloration of birdwings over time. I had a frame with a single pair of O. goliath supremus in my living room for 15+ years. This room received bright natural light, and during certain times of the year, the frame would receive direct sunlight for a limited amount of time each day. Perhaps only an hour or slightly more, and only for a few weeks while the sun was at a particular position in the sky. The green coloration of the male changed so much that I eventually took them down. Not to try and save the specimens, but because it bothered me that it's color was now so unnatural. The hindwings of the female also faded considerably.

Also of note, all of the light entering this room was through window glass - never screens. The specimens were also never exposed to fluorescent lighting.

Did it turn blue? Well, the color was still more green than blue, but it was far more of a "bluish-green" than any natural O. goliath which hadn't been altered. I've spread dozens of goliaths and seen hundreds - this was quite "freaky" looking. I still have the specimen, which I have now photographed next to a normal, fresh specimen. The photo does not even show just how odd this specimen appears in person! In a case full of normal goliaths, it jumps right out at you. The yellow in the hindwings was also altered/toned down from the sunlight exposure.

The acrylic in this frame was NOT UV filtering. I now use only the highest quality museum acrylic available for my frames/displays, and I have much better window coverings as well! It should be noted that even the best UV filtering acrylic or glass is not 100% protection from fading or color change.

Based on what I've seen, I cannot imagine why long term exposure to intense sunlight couldn't eventually turn a specimen blue. Afterall, sunlight contains plenty of UV! Can this happen in the short natural lifespan of a birdwing? I would have to say no way.

Is O. priamus more resistant to color change from natural sunlight than O. goliath? I don't know, but it seems unlikely.

Years ago, when the "blue" birdwings were being seen very frequently, I did an experiment where I purposely exposed a goliath to U.V. light. I covered half the specimen, and left the other half exposed, to show just how much the color would be altered. I did this because I wanted to see for myself how easily this could be done, and also to show fellow collectors and make them aware. This has been some years ago and I'm not sure I still have the light, but it was just a very small handheld fluorescent light with ordinary black light bulbs. It was not high power nor was it a "germicidal" type light with the most dangerous u.v. spectrum. I will do some searching and see if I can find it. Anyways it worked rather quickly - within one to two weeks it turned the green to a true blue.

The lower specimen in this photo is the one which was in the frame in my living room.
Comp IN.jpg
Comp IN.jpg (720.84 KiB) Viewed 782 times
“Seems to me the natural world is the greatest source of excitement; the greatest source of visual beauty; the greatest source of intellectual interest. It is the greatest source of so much in life that makes life worth living.” -David Attenborough
Chuck
Premium Member - 2024
Premium Member - 2024
Reactions:
Posts: 886
Joined: Mon May 23, 2022 2:30 pm
Solomon Islands

Re: UV and birdwings

Post by Chuck »

livingplanet3 wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 8:39 pm
Chuck wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 8:33 pm ...urvilleanus are blue. They stay blue.
Chuck, I just noticed that your profile states Solomon Islands as your location; do you see O. priamus urvillianus very often there? That's always been one of my favorite Ornithoptera; would be amazing to see living examples.
I'm not currently there, as life and COVID lockdown prohibited travel to Solomon Islands.

OP urvilleanus is relatively common. It frequents "suburban" areas, nectaring on Hibiscus. Just about the only place one won't see OPU is downtown Honiara. Both sexes nectar in the morning (10am - noon) so in the right location it would be easy to catch a dozen. They are a sight to see: bird sized blue butterflies, with the male's giant yellow abdomen seeming too heavy to lift during flight so they look like they're dragging bananas behind.

Aside from nectaring, they can be observed sailing around, typically 10m or so high, just about everywhere.

Contrast that to O victoriae, which does NOT like urbanization. They do NOT fly around the suburbs or "highways" and only occasionally enter village gardens to nectar. They're often observed from the edge of the jungle, flying in the canopy. Only in the least disturbed villages are they found nectaring. That said, they are common, but it's hard to see them above the canopy.

OPU larvae can readily found along the edge of villages and the suburbs of Honiara. Michael, who breeds OV in Kokobona, reports that he has to go a couple KM into the jungle to find OV larvae.

Females of both species are of course huge. It's quite the experience to be walking a jungle trail when a female drops below the canopy and sails around. I hate to say it, but after a while one become accustomed to seeing OPU; still the first sighting is breathtaking.
User avatar
Panacanthus
Premium Member - 2024
Premium Member - 2024
Reactions:
Posts: 113
Joined: Tue May 31, 2022 7:51 pm
United States of America

Re: UV and birdwings

Post by Panacanthus »

Here is a photo of the specimen I talked about in my previous post, in a drawer with 5 other males. This was taken under a different type of lighting than the previous photo. I think it shows the difference in colors a little better. When seen by itself in person, is appears a bluish green, but when seen with other males, it almost leans towards blue. Granted, this "effect" is enhanced because normal goliaths tend to have quite a golden overtone to their green.
Case IN.jpg
Case IN.jpg (723.37 KiB) Viewed 741 times
“Seems to me the natural world is the greatest source of excitement; the greatest source of visual beauty; the greatest source of intellectual interest. It is the greatest source of so much in life that makes life worth living.” -David Attenborough
User avatar
Trehopr1
Global Moderators
Global Moderators
Reactions:
Posts: 982
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2022 1:48 am
United States of America

Re: UV and birdwings

Post by Trehopr1 »

Thank you so much panacanthus for your insights and personal observations on this interesting topic.

Hopefully, novice enthusiasts will learn to avoid framing their lepidoptera for enjoyment; or will at least not expose them to undo natural light (if they want to keep them as beautiful) as when they first acquired them.
User avatar
Panacanthus
Premium Member - 2024
Premium Member - 2024
Reactions:
Posts: 113
Joined: Tue May 31, 2022 7:51 pm
United States of America

Re: UV and birdwings

Post by Panacanthus »

Trehopr1 wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 1:57 am Thank you so much panacanthus for your insights and personal observations on this interesting topic.

Hopefully, novice enthusiasts will learn to avoid framing their lepidoptera for enjoyment; or will at least not expose them to undo natural light (if they want to keep them as beautiful) as when they first acquired them.
Thank you Trehopr1. I will admit, I still do framing, but I always use the highest quality museum acrylic available, and I keep these frames/displays in areas which receive almost no natural light. Also no fluorescent light. Certainly not any direct sunlight! I have not had any issues with fading or color change as long as I follow these precautions.

As I grow older, I have more desire to enjoy my collection on a daily basis in the form of displays - I want to see some of my specimens displayed on the walls. I accept that this is not scientifically proper, but that’s not my priority to be honest. Some people create a collection with the number one goal being “scientific”. Some work with insects in a purely artistic manner. I guess I’m somewhere in between!

There is no doubt that a person who wishes to “scientifically” preserve their specimens the best way possible will leave them in dark drawers though.

I have a very large O. goliath display which contains all of my very best specimens. It was framed with museum acrylic and is located away from any bright natural light. It’s been on the wall for at least 10 years and there is no sign whatsoever of color change. I get a tremendous amount of enjoyment from seeing them every single day and certainly have no regrets.

If anyone is looking for the best acrylic, I feel that Optium Museum Acrylic made by Tru Vue is exceptional. It blocks 99%of uv light, is anti-reflective, anti-static, and has a scratch resistant coating. It’s amazing stuff but it’s not cheap! Also, it doesn’t just protect. The anti-reflective properties mean that is almost looks as if there’s nothing there, and colors of specimens are far more beautiful when viewed through it, as opposed to ordinary acrylic.
“Seems to me the natural world is the greatest source of excitement; the greatest source of visual beauty; the greatest source of intellectual interest. It is the greatest source of so much in life that makes life worth living.” -David Attenborough
User avatar
livingplanet3
Premium Member - 2024
Premium Member - 2024
Reactions:
Posts: 584
Joined: Tue May 24, 2022 4:55 pm
United States of America

Re: UV and birdwings

Post by livingplanet3 »

Chuck wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 11:59 am
livingplanet3 wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 8:39 pm
Chuck wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 8:33 pm ...urvilleanus are blue. They stay blue.
Chuck, I just noticed that your profile states Solomon Islands as your location; do you see O. priamus urvillianus very often there? That's always been one of my favorite Ornithoptera; would be amazing to see living examples.
I'm not currently there, as life and COVID lockdown prohibited travel to Solomon Islands.

OP urvilleanus is relatively common. It frequents "suburban" areas, nectaring on Hibiscus. Just about the only place one won't see OPU is downtown Honiara. Both sexes nectar in the morning (10am - noon) so in the right location it would be easy to catch a dozen. They are a sight to see: bird sized blue butterflies, with the male's giant yellow abdomen seeming too heavy to lift during flight so they look like they're dragging bananas behind.

Aside from nectaring, they can be observed sailing around, typically 10m or so high, just about everywhere.

Contrast that to O victoriae, which does NOT like urbanization. They do NOT fly around the suburbs or "highways" and only occasionally enter village gardens to nectar. They're often observed from the edge of the jungle, flying in the canopy. Only in the least disturbed villages are they found nectaring. That said, they are common, but it's hard to see them above the canopy.

OPU larvae can readily found along the edge of villages and the suburbs of Honiara. Michael, who breeds OV in Kokobona, reports that he has to go a couple KM into the jungle to find OV larvae.

Females of both species are of course huge. It's quite the experience to be walking a jungle trail when a female drops below the canopy and sails around. I hate to say it, but after a while one become accustomed to seeing OPU; still the first sighting is breathtaking.
Many thanks for the above; it seems unlikely that I will ever personally visit the Solomons, but it's great to hear a first-hand account of the birdwings there!

A couple of collectors have recently mentioned to me that specimens of O. victoriae are now being legally exported from the Solomons again, but I've not been able to confirm if this is actually true. I recall reading something (probably on this forum) about it having been some time now since this species could be exported from the Solomons, due to some legal technicality. Perhaps you can elaborate on this?
Chuck
Premium Member - 2024
Premium Member - 2024
Reactions:
Posts: 886
Joined: Mon May 23, 2022 2:30 pm
Solomon Islands

Re: UV and birdwings

Post by Chuck »

Victoriae has never been illegal to export from Solomon Islands. History, dates give or take a year:

1998: CITES rep visits Solomon Islands and wants CITES to be paid to conduct studies and such to ensure OV isn't endangered; looking out the window is deemed insufficient. SI Dept of Natural Resources [DNR] tells him to go pound sand.
1998: CITES introduces ban on trade of OV specifically from CITES; gets picked up in USA, published once in Federal Register.
Post 1998: USFWS forgets about the SI OV ban (not difficult since it was buried in Fed Reg) and allows import into USA
2002: Two top esteemed Lepidopterists go to SI, catch a bunch of bugs including OV, and take off with them. Head of DNR goes ballistic, being ripped off by the white man again. Decrees, and hangs sign in DNR office "NO EXPORT OF ANY WILDLIFE NO MATTER WHAT"
2002: DNR still really, really angry. DNR #2 guy allows me to export anyway, but just me. And Solomon Islanders.
2003: USFWS rediscovers CITES ban on SI OV.
2006ish. "Something happens" (probably involving greasy palms) and CITES lifts ban on SI OV trade. However, it's still on the books in USA.

So OV has never been illegal to export from SI. It was (is?) illegal to import into USA. I wrote that years ago- someone only had to get their local politician to introduce a law to remove the restriction. I have no idea if it ever happened. Perhaps somehow it got done (finally) anyway. Or, it may still be on the books. Ask USFWS and GET IT IN WRITING.
User avatar
livingplanet3
Premium Member - 2024
Premium Member - 2024
Reactions:
Posts: 584
Joined: Tue May 24, 2022 4:55 pm
United States of America

Re: UV and birdwings

Post by livingplanet3 »

Chuck wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:13 pm Victoriae has never been illegal to export from Solomon Islands. History, dates give or take a year:

1998: CITES rep visits Solomon Islands and wants CITES to be paid to conduct studies and such to ensure OV isn't endangered; looking out the window is deemed insufficient. SI Dept of Natural Resources [DNR] tells him to go pound sand.
1998: CITES introduces ban on trade of OV specifically from CITES; gets picked up in USA, published once in Federal Register.
Post 1998: USFWS forgets about the SI OV ban (not difficult since it was buried in Fed Reg) and allows import into USA
2002: Two top esteemed Lepidopterists go to SI, catch a bunch of bugs including OV, and take off with them. Head of DNR goes ballistic, being ripped off by the white man again. Decrees, and hangs sign in DNR office "NO EXPORT OF ANY WILDLIFE NO MATTER WHAT"
2002: DNR still really, really angry. DNR #2 guy allows me to export anyway, but just me. And Solomon Islanders.
2003: USFWS rediscovers CITES ban on SI OV.
2006ish. "Something happens" (probably involving greasy palms) and CITES lifts ban on SI OV trade. However, it's still on the books in USA.

So OV has never been illegal to export from SI. It was (is?) illegal to import into USA. I wrote that years ago- someone only had to get their local politician to introduce a law to remove the restriction. I have no idea if it ever happened. Perhaps somehow it got done (finally) anyway. Or, it may still be on the books. Ask USFWS and GET IT IN WRITING.
Thanks again. I've been offered several SI OV over the past couple of years by sellers in the US (and I too, am in the US), but have been hesitant to purchase since I wasn't quite sure of the legality of the specimens (due to the USFWS issue you described above). Even if importing SI OV into the US directly from the Solomons is still prohibited, what if a US seller imported them from some other country that had imported them legally since they weren't subject to the (US only) ban on SI OV importation?

In any case, would there be any potential for legal issues on my end, since I myself wouldn't actually be doing any importing at all?
Chuck
Premium Member - 2024
Premium Member - 2024
Reactions:
Posts: 886
Joined: Mon May 23, 2022 2:30 pm
Solomon Islands

Re: UV and birdwings

Post by Chuck »

livingplanet3 wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:45 pm
Chuck wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:13 pm Victoriae has never been illegal to export from Solomon Islands. History, dates give or take a year:

1998: CITES rep visits Solomon Islands and wants CITES to be paid to conduct studies and such to ensure OV isn't endangered; looking out the window is deemed insufficient. SI Dept of Natural Resources [DNR] tells him to go pound sand.
1998: CITES introduces ban on trade of OV specifically from CITES; gets picked up in USA, published once in Federal Register.
Post 1998: USFWS forgets about the SI OV ban (not difficult since it was buried in Fed Reg) and allows import into USA
2002: Two top esteemed Lepidopterists go to SI, catch a bunch of bugs including OV, and take off with them. Head of DNR goes ballistic, being ripped off by the white man again. Decrees, and hangs sign in DNR office "NO EXPORT OF ANY WILDLIFE NO MATTER WHAT"
2002: DNR still really, really angry. DNR #2 guy allows me to export anyway, but just me. And Solomon Islanders.
2003: USFWS rediscovers CITES ban on SI OV.
2006ish. "Something happens" (probably involving greasy palms) and CITES lifts ban on SI OV trade. However, it's still on the books in USA.

So OV has never been illegal to export from SI. It was (is?) illegal to import into USA. I wrote that years ago- someone only had to get their local politician to introduce a law to remove the restriction. I have no idea if it ever happened. Perhaps somehow it got done (finally) anyway. Or, it may still be on the books. Ask USFWS and GET IT IN WRITING.
Thanks again. I've been offered several SI OV over the past couple of years by sellers in the US (and I too, am in the US), but have been hesitant to purchase since I wasn't quite sure of the legality of the specimens (due to the USFWS issue you described above). Even if importing SI OV into the US directly from the Solomons is still prohibited, what if a US seller imported them from some other country that had imported them legally since they weren't subject to the (US only) ban on SI OV importation?

In any case, would there be any potential for legal issues on my end, since I myself wouldn't actually be doing any importing at all?

This was mostly addressed in the big write-up on CITES. Ownership of an illegally imported anything isn't illegal, but the thing is illegal, so can be seized. Importing of anything banned is still illegal if going through an intermediary country; technically doing that legally is even more of a PITA because you need documents from both countries.

There have been thousands of OV imported to USA for the past hundred plus years. Personally, if the seller is reputable I see no cause for concern.
Post Reply

Create an account or sign in to join the discussion

You need to be a member in order to post a reply

Create an account

Not a member? register to join our community
Members can start their own topics & subscribe to topics
It’s free and only takes a minute

Register

Sign in