USDA permit for live insects, plus universal Saturnid plant

[Chuck]

Gleaned a couple of interesting points from an article in LepSoc News ("Universal host plant...", Vicky Oldham):

USDA- free permits for live insect interstate transport

Article says a USDA permit is required for interstate (and, international- which you won't get) transport of live insects.

According to USDA https://www.aphis.usda.gov/organism-soi ... lies-moths :

At the top, USDA says "USDA requires permits for the importation and interstate movement of live butterflies and moths under the authority of 7 CFR 330"

But in typical government fashion, it has a wizard to evaluate whether you need a permit or not, and no matter what I selected it came up completely negative.

Do you need a permit to send Saturnid cocoons? Damned if I could get a trustworthy answer from the USDA website.


Universal larval food plant for Saturnids (?)

The author successfully raised the following species on Rhus trilobata, a common western sumac.
Actias luna
Hyalophora cecropia
Antheraea polyphemus
Callosamia promethea
Hyalophora gloveri
Citheronia regalis
Rothchildia cincta

[wollastoni]

Interesting.

But on the USDA website, I read that the Interstate permit thing applies only to 9 butterfly species : https://www.aphis.usda.gov/organism-soi ... moths-faqs

These species being : Agraulis vanillae, Danaus plexippus, Heliconius charitonius, Heraclides cresphontes, Nymphalis antiopa,Papilio polyxenes, Pieris rapae, Vanessa atalanta, Vanessa cardui, Vanessa virginiensis

[Chuck]

Interesting.

But on the USDA website, I read that the Interstate permit thing applies only to 9 butterfly species : https://www.aphis.usda.gov/organism-soi ... moths-faqs

These species being : Agraulis vanillae, Danaus plexippus, Heliconius charitonius, Heraclides cresphontes, Nymphalis antiopa,Papilio polyxenes, Pieris rapae, Vanessa atalanta, Vanessa cardui, Vanessa virginiensis

Indeed I read that as well. So I'm not sure why the author would state otherwise. Nor am I certain the above is accurate, it's within the context of but one of the various licenses.

[wollastoni]

Try to contact the author.

[Chuck]

Try to contact the author.

I don't raise Leps anymore, so I don't care.

I was more impressed with a universal food plant, meaning those in western US should be able to raise the eastern species much easier.

[jellybean]

More USDA info for moving plant pests. Permit required:
https://www.aphis.usda.gov/organism-soi ... i%2C%20etc.)%2C%20biological
Have fun!
Maybe Musk and Ramaswamy will do away with such bureaucratic regulations:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-elon ... fficiency/

[wollastoni]

Well, invasive insect species can be a disaster for the US agriculture. I doubt USDA will be concerned by this anti-bureaucratic move (if it really happens).

And I am afraid the lobby of Luna moth breeders is not as powerful as the agriculture lobby in the USA. So nothing will change in the right direction for us.

[Chuck]

Well, invasive insect species can be a disaster for the US agriculture. I doubt USDA will be concerned by this anti-bureaucratic move (if it really happens).

And I am afraid the lobby of Luna moth breeders is not as powerful as the agriculture lobby in the USA. So nothing will change in the right direction for us.

Truth, sadly.

Note though that there has been progress, such as the carnivorous Goliathus which are now in USA breedable and exchangeable. We know that Ornithoptera species are typically restricted to one or few Aristolochia species. It is highly unlike that any or most would feed on North American Aristolochia, thus they should be importable and breedable. Whether by conducting such tests (readily accomplished since both NA Aristolochia and NA Ornithoptera are readily available to zoos) or by lawsuit, it should be and easy accomplishment, not needing payoff of high power politicians.

Perhaps it needs no repeating, but most of the ecological disasters from insect pests have been either (1) via imported wood, and (2) with USDA/ USFWS blessing and even activity. The threat from captive foreign insects is nothing like that of aquarium fish- in other words, the organizations that prohibit international transfer of live insects are the same ones that created most of our insect-driven disasters. And no, nobody in power is going to recognize, care about, or change this.

FWIW, I'll just throw in my opinion: I'm not a fan of releasing Actias luna (or any insect) except at the source, even if the species naturally occurs where being captive bred. There are too many distinct regional variations/ forms that could be detrimentally impacted by interbreeding with individuals from a far-away region. In PNG Ornithoptera alexandrae has been shown to have to slightly differing populations, yet the experts are interbreeding them for population survival; I do not agree with doing this- the solution to the problem is readily known, so do that.

[kevinkk]

Universal Saturniid foodplant? Please. I'm still laughing.

Invasive species are typically not the result of hobbyist activity, cane toads, sugar cane beetles, gypsy moths, and on to infinity...

I thought Liquidambar was the "universal" food plant.

This is all silly. Nobody is going to check permits for domestic mail, it's that simple. International, that's another matter, and while many
shipments get through, some do not, and then you will worry about your transgression for several months, not like I speak from experience or anything-

[adamcotton]

Whether by conducting such tests (readily accomplished since both NA Aristolochia and NA Ornithoptera are readily available to zoos) ...

I thought that only male pupae of exotic butterfly species could be imported for display in US butterfly houses. If that is true then these experiments could not be performed.

Adam.

[adamcotton]

I thought Liquidambar was the "universal" food plant.

Many species will feed on Liquidambar, and I have often used it to assist a Thai museum researcher rearing Saturniidae for him from eggs he has sent me. However, many genera will not feed on it (e.g. Loepa), and also some species in the same genus (e.g. Antheraea) will feed on it happily, whereas others will not at all.

I often find wild Cricula trifenestrata on it in my garden (I have many trees here) but mainly Attacus atlas does not lay eggs on this, mostly I have seen larvae on a wide range of other plants, and only once on Liquidambar.

Adam.

[Chuck]

Whether by conducting such tests (readily accomplished since both NA Aristolochia and NA Ornithoptera are readily available to zoos) ...

I thought that only male pupae of exotic butterfly species could be imported for display in US butterfly houses. If that is true then these experiments could not be performed.

Adam.

If that is the case today, it's rather new. I was recently in a "butterfly zoo" and going through the photos I can ID a female Attacus atlas. A few years ago I was in an different one, and the head keeper told me they were having troubles with USDA inspections because they are not supposed to breed butterflies, but the morphos were breeding, and in fact the larvae were easily found.

I'm not sure about Ornithoptera; I have photos of males in butterfly zoos, but I probably wouldn't bother to much notice, nor photo, females.

[Chuck]

Universal Saturniid foodplant? Please. I'm still laughing.

I thought Liquidambar was the "universal" food plant.

The article was insightful, pointing out that the larval food plants of eastern Saturnids are not readily available in the western USA, thus many enthusiasts in the west are challenged to raise and breed these beautiful taxa.

I hadn't thought much of it, though if anyone asked it's obvious. Within 4m of my house is cherry, oak, and maple; I have to walk 8m to get to a Tulip Tree. All of these are incredibly abundant here, I can literally throw a rock off the deck and hit 1000 of any of those trees. But for the most part these plants do not grow in the west.

With Rhus trilobata, which apparently is rather common out west, the option to easily raise the larvae of at least some of these eastern Saturnids become available. Nothing is truly "universal" not even Liquidambar; but Rhus appears to be a new, and rather surprising, development.

Besides which, and perhaps not ironically, Liquidambar is extremely rare here in NY Finger Lakes; in fact it, like the dark morph Papilio glaucus and hundreds of other taxa, does not generally occur NE of the Stop Line of Southern Aggression. So Liquidambar doesn't do me much good.

[adamcotton]

Rhus appears to be a new, and rather surprising, development.

The Thai Museum researcher mentioned to me once that some local Saturniidae species feed on Rhus in the wild, so perhaps it is not as surprising as you may think. I don't have any Rhus here, so never tried it.

Before people get the wrong impression, I don't know very much about Thai Saturniidae other than what I have learnt from the Thai researcher and only rear larvae for him if he asks me to help.

Adam.

[eurytides]

I have raised Luna moths on Rhus typhina but have not tried with the other species.

I don’t recall seeing any male birdwings in butterfly houses. But female atlas moths definitely. Was at the Smithsonian butterfly house about a decade ago and saw both atlas eggs and young larvae crawling around.

[Chuck]

Last time I was in the Niagara Falls Canada zoo they had Ornithoptera priamus. Said it was a real pain now importing pupae.

[kevinkk]

The food plant question is really a subjective one. Personally, I don't know if I've ever seen a Sumac tree, anywhere.
For rearing moths at least, here you go- Willow, Oak, Cherry, SweetGum and Privet, those will take you a long way.
Even then, not everyone is correct all the time, I've had recommended foods refused, and I am certain it happens to
other people as well.
Certainly, the research is interesting, and worth reading, it just gets filed away with everything else I come across.

I spoke a number of times with someone that obtained a permit for importing butterflies, I don't recall if he was able to import both sexes, it sounded like a lot of work to me, I do recall way back when I had dreams of exotic moths, that a permit only allowed males in one year, and females another, if it's still that way, I don't know.

[Chuck]

https://www.inaturalist.org/observation ... _id=867365

Rhus trilobata appears to be rare in WA and OR. Common throughout most of the Rockies.

As far as APHIS permits to import live insects, well it's like anything else in USA: it's about permits, and you get permits with money, sometimes indirect money going through politicians. Virtually nothing in USA is totally forbidden, it just needs government permission.

Case in point: would you like to own nuclear missiles? Boeing, which makes nuclear missiles, is worth $126B. Elon Musk is worth $400B. If Elon wants nukes, he can buy Boeing.

Often times, it's a matter of understanding the subject matter via research. If you want a permit for something, become familiar with the requirements. There's a lot of "conventional wisdom" concerning laws, permits, and everything else in life, that is either wrong or simplified. Like CITES which is surrounded by various claims which are often false.

In a way, the permitting process for virtually everything in USA comes down to limiting permits to those who fall into one or two categories: (1) with plenty of money, (2) are serious enough to put the effort in. The first is a serious limit to entrepreneurial advancement, and it really shows as USA's edge degrades; the second I suppose is reasonable enough to demonstrate responsibility and keep out the riffraff. I had little trouble obtaining a permit to collect in NYS parks because I had a goal, and bothered to apply.

[kevinkk]

Well, following the guidelines is the correct way to stay out of trouble, and I applaud anyone who takes the time to do so,
I do get reminded of a Homer Simpson quote-"trying is the first step towards failure". I follow the don't ask in the first place strategy.

[mothman27]

I've been thinking on the subject of permits lately. Are there any US hobbyists (anyone on here?) who actually have permits to import/raise foreign species such as saturniidae? I look on Facebook and everybody is raising and shipping species like A. atlas and A. rhodopneuma like it's nothing. I'm convinced most people have no idea that it is illegal.