Agrias butterflies

[Annarobertson1947]

Hello Tim !
Congratulations are in order for finishing up your schooling.

Very nice to see you once again posting some of your acquisitions. Have missed your presence here on the forum but, hope to see more of you here now as youthful collectors help to invigorate our forum !

A. narcissus is certainly a grand start in the genus and females of just about anything are just "icing on the cake" for one's collection.

Wish you well in your endeavors and do stay in touch with us here !

Cake needs icing :

[adamcotton]

As recommended by Chuck, I moved all the posts below this one to a new topic called Global travel collecting at:

viewtopic.php?t=1554

Please continue that thread there rather than here, so posts about Agrias can continue in this thread.

Adam.

[Annarobertson1947]

Hi everyone,
Just a bit puzzled over A.pericles females , I'm seeing that lets take as an example, pericles aurantiaca and mauensis ,the females in particular are to me identticle,
There is a shift in males acrossssp but the females are very consistent generally.
Any thoughts ??

[hewi]

The females of mauensis can be very different. The forewing colouring changes from yellow to red at will. There are also specimens with blue and green colouring. I have never observed such a variety of colouration in aurantiaca.

[wollastoni]

As perfectly said by Manfred, females of ssp mauensis vary a lot, with some wonderful forms : see on the Agrias website : https://agrias-butterflies.com/agrias-p ... -mauensis/

There are less variations in female aurantiaca : https://agrias-butterflies.com/agrias-p ... urantiaca/

[Annarobertson1947]

So as far as i can see, mauensis orange form female became the dominant form for aurantiaca immaculatus and so on.

[Annarobertson1947]

I think all my questions are now answered, i purchased Manfreds book

[wollastoni]

Excellent books indeed.

And the more you will study Agrias, the more questions you will have ! It is a very interesting (and difficult) group.

[Annarobertson1947]

Excellent books indeed.

And the more you will study Agrias, the more questions you will have ! It is a very interesting (and difficult) group.

Well the confusion is compounded by the plethora of form names that i see as a money making system for dealers.

[wollastoni]

Don't see them like that.
Agrias are involved in very complex mimicry rings triggering different forms in each zone of Amazonia. Studying the distribution of each forms is very interesting. Each Rio of Amazonia seems to trigger different forms, these are the local forms. Then you have some individual forms (various forms inside the same population). Then you have "hybridization" between forms/subpecies at contact zones. Mix all that, and you have the craziness of Agrias (sub)genus ! That's why they are so interesting to study/collect.

Especially on some species like phalcidon (the king of Agrias species to my mind).

[Annarobertson1947]

I understand this but one would have to admit that a lot of dealers do stretch things in asking price to point of absurdity

[wollastoni]

It is all about offer and demand, Anna.
If sellers don't sell their "rare forms", the price will decrease.

Prices are going down on Agrias for various reasons :
- several species are now bred. Prices of phalcidon excelsior forms have collapsed for example. From $1,000 to $100 in few years.
- more and more "old collections" are for sale in Europe (many collectors are very old / dead and their collection are for sale), reinjecting a lot of Agrias specimens on the market.

[Chuck]

Agrias are involved in very complex mimicry rings triggering different forms in each zone of Amazonia. Studying the distribution of each forms is very interesting. Each Rio of Amazonia seems to trigger different forms, these are the local forms. Then you have some individual forms (various forms inside the same population). Then you have "hybridization" between forms/subpecies at contact zones. Mix all that, and you have the craziness of Agrias (sub)genus ! That's why they are so interesting to study/collect.

A situation we are finding is far more common that ever thought- and not just in butterflies. Regional speciation in progress, recombinant hybrids, etc. In so many taxa, we can no longer put a specimen into a nice little "species box" anymore.

[Chuck]

I understand this but one would have to admit that a lot of dealers do stretch things in asking price to point of absurdity

There is of course the point of asking as much as possible to maximize profit. There's a good chance somebody will come along and pay it. Remember, there are those for whom paying $300 too much is nothing, because it's only $300.

On the other hand, high $$ value attracts those who see themselves as top rarities collectors. I learned this many years ago at the LA Bug Show- I had a rare beetle that didn't sell on day 1. But instead of reducing the price on Day 2, I tripled the price. It sold quickly...then others were running to ask if I had more.

Finally, the high-$$ specimens may be part of the dealer's collection and they don't need to sell it, maybe don't want to sell it. I do this. I may price a $4000 item at $6000; you want to pay $6000 then you can have it, but otherwise I'll keep it, thank you.

It's easy for a dealer to initially price high, and reduce the price if it doesn't sell. That is what's typically and universally done.

[Annarobertson1947]

Agreed,i do same when selling, this time of year i sell off excess on eBay

[wollastoni]

Agrias are involved in very complex mimicry rings triggering different forms in each zone of Amazonia. Studying the distribution of each forms is very interesting. Each Rio of Amazonia seems to trigger different forms, these are the local forms. Then you have some individual forms (various forms inside the same population). Then you have "hybridization" between forms/subpecies at contact zones. Mix all that, and you have the craziness of Agrias (sub)genus ! That's why they are so interesting to study/collect.

A situation we are finding is far more common that ever thought- and not just in butterflies. Regional speciation in progress, recombinant hybrids, etc. In so many taxa, we can no longer put a specimen into a nice little "species box" anymore.

Indeed I guess it happens on several species group everywhere... and especially in Amazonia where Rios seems to build isolated populations. But on most species, you won't see it at work (except in DNA). In Agrias, it is visible, and in an impressive way.

[Annarobertson1947]

I have seen on philip Floquet's book that he lists the red form as standard and the yellow form as divergent.
Now a friend who is a long time collector agrees,but am wanting a few thoughts from those on Insectnet.
Dealers tend to list red/ orange forms as rare ,and yellow is the usual color offered by dealers.
Any input appreciated.

[wollastoni]

Sometimes the type form is not the most common.
It all depends which forms has been found first by the describer.

Red athenais are indeed less offered on the market.

[mothman27]

Looking for some opinions on what species/subspecies this is. To me looks like A. claudina... But it doesn't look like the forms I'd expect based on collection data. I'm just going based of info online.

Data: Rio Tapajos, Amazonas state, Brazil
Wingspan 80mm

IMG_20240908_200417745~2.jpg (712.4 KiB) Viewed 6948 times

IMG_20240908_200452465~4.jpg (775.64 KiB) Viewed 6948 times

[hewi]

You are right, it is claudina.
However, the butterfly does not correspond to the ssp. that flies at the Rio Tapajoz. But it corresponds exactly to the ssp. lugens from Peru. I am therefore 100 per cent sure that the locality is wrong.