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adamcotton · by adamcotton » Sun Dec 03, 2023 9:02 am

Papilio hipponous is a separate species from the Philippines, not directly related to P. polytes but in the fuscus-group. Another species related to P. hipponous is P. prexaspes from the Malay Peninsula, Borneo and Indochina, with a subspecies in Hainan - bowringi. This subspecies is rather hard to obtain, as it lives only in the lowlands, and generally not in places people go to look for butterflies. It also looks superficially very like P. polytes, but note the lack of white spots along the forewing margin of all species in the fuscus-group.

Adam.

Leonard187 · by Leonard187 » Sun Dec 03, 2023 5:48 am

Recently I saw a specimen named Papilio hipponous which is much similar as P. polytes. However I cannot find it as a subspecies from above list. May
I know whether it is just a synonym of some sp. or ssp.?

alandmor · by alandmor » Sat Dec 02, 2023 7:36 pm

I just wanted to mention a possible alternative to the traditional No Pest Strips mentioned here. Hercon Vaportape II has the same active ingredient (Dichlorvos,10% vs. 18.6%) but in a more user-friendly, 1" x 4" thin strip and easier to cut. Vaportape II is intended to use as a fumigant in outdoor insect traps and is available from any place that sells insect pest management or insect monitoring supplies such as Great Lakes IPM, https://www.greatlakesipm.com/. The label says to replace after 12 weeks or when effectiveness diminishes. I'd imagine they'd last longer in an enclosed drawer. I have not used either product in insect drawers for pest control so can't vouch for their effectiveness or advisability of doing so since neither product are labelled for such use.

Image courtesy of Julieta Brambila, USDA APHIS PPQ, Bugwood.org

: 5432077-PPT.jpg (66.28 KiB) Viewed 5930 times

Cabintom · by Cabintom » Sat Dec 02, 2023 12:03 pm

I believe that this philosophy can also apply to habitat (in addition to weather or time of day). Most of my most exciting records here in DRC were captured in degraded habitats. I think many collectors who come to the tropics aim to do their collecting in pristine habitats (and there's certainly logic to this) and naturally pass-by "less optimal" locations.

Back in the day, when you you could safely camp in the forest and travel around relatively freely, lots collectors would visit Mt. Hoyo, here in Ituri. A common staging point was Nyankunde, which had an airstrip, hospital and a significant ex-pat community given the size of the village. Nyankunde is not all that biogeographically interesting and so it seems very few bothered to do any collecting in the area.
I've collected the holotype of Neptis morosopsis and discovered a colony of Euchrysops kabrosae at the top of the hill directly behind the hospital.

wollastoni · by wollastoni » Sat Dec 02, 2023 11:33 am

It seems we are back.

wollastoni · by wollastoni » Fri Dec 01, 2023 7:32 pm

Grmpfff the problem seems worst than thought by my tech team... and I am facing a TOTAL non-professionalism from Ilance (the Canadian company who created the marketplace software)... so it will take more time... I keep you all informed.

wollastoni · by wollastoni » Fri Dec 01, 2023 6:59 pm

You can indeed hit the "Donate" button below, no differences.

Thank you !!!

adamcotton · by adamcotton » Fri Dec 01, 2023 6:20 pm

COI does not really give a reliable indication of species status, only a suggestion of probability. On the other hand a combination of various mitochondrial genes and importantly also a number of nuclear genes gives a much better indication of specificity ... but even then results can be unreliable in some cases.

Adam.

PS. I agree with John's comment just above. DNA characters are just that ... another category of characters. They should be taken into consideration alongside all other 'traditional' characters.

Chuck · by Chuck » Fri Dec 01, 2023 3:50 pm

(John) that makes me wonder what the pros have been doing for two centuries, arguing about whether something is a species or subspecies.

While CO1 gives some insight- and clears up some of these issues, I'd hope there was SOME standard being set...or at least a baseline guideline.

I see a lot of stuff in BOLD BINs that are all roughly equal off the same branch, and presumably then all manner of taxa(?) could be named as species.

Chuck · by Chuck » Fri Dec 01, 2023 3:17 pm

Oh shoot! I know I got the email while travelling but somehow it went off to spam and disappeared. Can you resend the link to donate? Or should I just hit the yellow "Donate" button below? Does it make any difference?

jhyatt · by jhyatt » Fri Dec 01, 2023 3:14 pm

Chuck wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2023 7:50 pm Thanks Adam.

"Smaller difference in COI". Noting the other factors- range, flight period, etc. how the heck then would one determine Sp vs SSP considering COI?

If we use 2% as a safe range for species (noting that many are now less than that), what might be the difference for a ssp? Must be less than 1/3 of 1%, considering glaucus and appalachiensis.

I expect the answer is "it depends" and "the other factors" but then still....we can argue morphology all day, argue about distant populations, etc...even combining all the factors, are there ANY guidelines for Sp vs SSP now?

To me, DNA data is just another character to use in making what is fundamentally a subjective decision. The DNA % difference is neither stronger nor weaker evidence of speciation than morphology and biology. Species are biological facts, but the rest of classification, both higher and lower levels, is a human construct. At least, that's the way I look at the situation....

jh

wollastoni · by wollastoni » Fri Dec 01, 2023 11:56 am

Yes, we had to buy a larger server due to too many pictures uploaded by sellers.
We should be back today or tomorrow.

wollastoni · by wollastoni » Fri Dec 01, 2023 9:59 am

Thank you very much to all those who have sent their yearly donation !
Good to see you're always here to help !

Cassidinae · by Cassidinae » Fri Dec 01, 2023 1:42 am

Down again? "The server is temporarily unable to service your request due to the site owner reaching his/her bandwidth limit. Please try again later."

Chuck · by Chuck » Thu Nov 30, 2023 7:50 pm

Thanks Adam.

"Smaller difference in COI". Noting the other factors- range, flight period, etc. how the heck then would one determine Sp vs SSP considering COI?

If we use 2% as a safe range for species (noting that many are now less than that), what might be the difference for a ssp? Must be less than 1/3 of 1%, considering glaucus and appalachiensis.

I expect the answer is "it depends" and "the other factors" but then still....we can argue morphology all day, argue about distant populations, etc...even combining all the factors, are there ANY guidelines for Sp vs SSP now?

adamcotton · by adamcotton » Thu Nov 30, 2023 6:43 pm

Chuck wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2023 2:26 pm OK, next question! Subspecies.
I know IUCN doesn't recognize subspecies, but we all know it has been commonly used for centuries.
However, as of late, most of what I'm seeing is ssp or populations elevated to (or recognized as) full species. I can't even recall the last time I saw a new ssp described.

Lots of new subspecies are described nowadays, probably they get less visibility.

IUCN is a conservation body, and it puts emphasis on species conservation rather than individual subspecies. If you meant ICZN, it treats subspecies as one of two taxon 'ranks' in the Species-group, so I guess you probably do mean IUCN.

Chuck wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2023 2:26 pm How do genetics play into this? The description of Dryocampa kendalli notes a difference in COI of 1.3% (plus morphological and range) from D rubicundra to call it a new species. Papilio appalachiensis COI differs .33% from glaucus.

Is subspecies simply out of vogue? We don't know what valid differentiators might define a subspecies?

Subspecies generally have a smaller difference in COI between them than between species, but it is often best to treat subspecies as visibly distinguishable from the nominotypical population in the large majority of specimens.

Difference in COI sequences is only an indicator that two taxa may be separate species or subspecies. Mostly it is a good indicator, but sometimes distinct species have almost identical COI sequences (e.g. Papilio eurymedon and P. rutulus).

Adam.

Panacanthus · by Panacanthus » Thu Nov 30, 2023 6:41 pm

Donation sent. Thank you wollastoni, for all your efforts in making InsectNet possible.

Chuck · by Chuck » Thu Nov 30, 2023 2:26 pm

OK, next question! Subspecies.

I know IUCN doesn't recognize subspecies, but we all know it has been commonly used for centuries.

However, as of late, most of what I'm seeing is ssp or populations elevated to (or recognized as) full species. I can't even recall the last time I saw a new ssp described.

How do genetics play into this? The description of Dryocampa kendalli notes a difference in COI of 1.3% (plus morphological and range) from D rubicundra to call it a new species. Papilio appalachiensis COI differs .33% from glaucus.

Is subspecies simply out of vogue? We don't know what valid differentiators might define a subspecies?

mothman55 · by mothman55 » Wed Nov 29, 2023 10:35 pm

Donation just sent. Worthwhile forum, thanks.

Paul K · by Paul K » Wed Nov 29, 2023 2:29 pm

RIP Mr.Smith
Wow 660 species in small, high altitude country.
In the whole Canada we have here just close to 300 species!

I just checked again and it’s not that small country, just because it is sandwiched between India and China looks so on the maps. Also includes almost all zones of south slop of Himalayan ridge which explain huge diversity of species.
It is for sure good place to visit but unfortunately I don’t think I will have the opportunity to do so.

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