Annarobertson1947 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 16, 2025 11:57 pm
A ssp as far as I'm aware in relation to other butterflies is a distinct geographical separation of races.
If the mixture of ssp occurs at edges of their ranges then they are not seperated geographically.
Hence how can they be sspas against a cline?

The taxonomic designation of sp and ssp are man's attempt to understand the living world and put things conveniently into boxes. These boxes do not exist in nature, less so than we previously understood.

One or more ssp may be determined based on a variety of factors, well beyond geography. This includes morphology, flight period, food plants, phermones, and more. With modern genetics we can get a better understanding of the relationships.

While geographic separation may be an indicator of differentiation at the ssp level, it surely is not mandatory. Many ssp overlap geographically, and in those regions they may hybridize. This is very common, in fact.

For Colombia, contact Fredy Montero (on facebook).

Hey team, I'm really keen to get to Peru and possibly Colombia this year. I've tried getting in touch about a trip with Amazon Insects in Peru with no response so far.

Does anyone have a recommendation of some companies who organise trips in either country? I'm also keen to meet with some dealers/farms/collectors and establish relationships with them

Interesting topic and a difficult one.

First of all, let's remind that the "Supspecies" concept (as the concept of race) is always tricky. Indeed, subspecies should be geographically isolated and morphologically different. A cline refers to a gradual change in a specific trait (often colors or patterns in butterfly species) across a geographical gradient within a species.

If the hybridization is very low (because the species doesn't move a lot), you can have 2 distinct populations one near another one. It often happens in Amazon between North and South Amazon. Amazon is very large (from 2 to 16 km !) and very few specimens cross it. So you have 2 subspecies but may find some "hybrids".

But how is a ssp described ? You know one species pattern in a place. You find a new population in a distant place which is really different. You describe a new ssp. Years later, other populations are found between the 2 localities and you can see a clear cline pattern... the 2 ssp are in reality a cline. This has to be proven and the 2 ssp have to by synonymised. It requires time, money (especially for Agrias) and will.

A classic example in Agrias :
- Agrias pericles pericles described in 1860 from Itaituba (Rio Tapajos) by the great HW Bates. This ssp has a lot of green on its typical form. Agrias are rare and it was described from few specimens.
- Agrias pericles mauensis described in 1921 by Fassl from Maues has no green on its typical form and was thus described as a new ssp. Agrias are rare and it was described from few specimens.

100 years later, we have caught much more specimens and we now know that these "green form" of pericles pericles can be found in ssp. mauensis too (and the contrary). The more you go towards Itaituba, the higher the % of green form you will find. It is a cline. If you compare 10 specimens of Itaituba and 10 specimens from Maues, you see 2 ssp. If you compare 1000 specimens and try to find specimens from localities between Maues and Itaituba, you discover a cline.

The taxonomy of Agrias is even more difficult than other genera because :
- there are a lot of forms within a ssp (genetic forms). This led to new ssp described by error.
- a lot of people want "their name" on an Agrias and are naming a lot of forms / ssp. Sometimes rightfully, sometimes for nothing.
- hybridization does happen. Sometimes hard to understand the level of it. Some ssp seems "pure", some are doubtful as explained above with pericles mauensis.
- anti-science Brazilian laws doesn't help. We should collect much more specimens to better understand what is happening.
- some populations (forms or ssp) have disappeared due to deforestation or other factors.

All these forms, hybridizations, ssp are what makes Agrias interesting to study ! It is very complex, especially in Amazon. You need a good knowledge about all Rios of Amazonia to better understand what is happening.

Some "scientists" will elude the topic saying "forms are not recognized by the Code", don't bother with that.
Some "scientists" will try to understand the genetics and population dynamics behind all these forms and that is a very interesting topic. David Lohman (City College of New York) has made a tremendous work on the Delias genus (another difficult genus). We need someone to do the same on the Agrias (sub)genus.

I'm going to ask why if ssp of Claudina and others are recognised as meeting at periphery of distribution ranges and hybrise, that to me is a contradiction of ssp versus cline designation.
A ssp as far as I'm aware in relation to other butterflies is a distinct geographical separation of races.
If the mixture of ssp occurs at edges of their ranges then they are not seperated geographically.
Hence how can they be sspas against a cline?

Thanks, I look forward to sharing some photos and asking questions here
Also chime in where and when I can.

Chuck wrote: ↑Thu Jan 16, 2025 2:40 pm For the price of bird seed I'd toss the bag and buy new. If your home is warm and humid I wouldn't want them migrating to plants, clothing, books, etc.

If you put the bag in the freezer for a week, take it out for 10 days and then freeze it again that will kill the Psocids and also any immatures that hatch from eggs which survive the first freeze. Then you can use the contents to feed the local birds.

Psocids mainly feed on microscopic fungal mycelia which grow on organic material in humid situations. It is possible they were already in the bag when you bought it, but it is also quite likely that they were already in your house at least in small numbers.

Adam.

PS. Please do send photos of other insects you find, Chuck was definitely being complimentary about the photo and information you provided. I am sure we all wish that everyone who wants an insect identified would post photos like this.

I think many people still don't realize that annual Leps which dipause one winter can actually go through two or more. I can't recall reading any paper specifically on the topic, just bits and pieces here and there, typically in papers dedicated to specific taxa/ taxon. So I think there's no list of presumably annual Leps that have been observed to dipause two or more winters. Heck, maybe it all of them, at least where there's winter.

I wonder how many live pupae have been tossed in the trash come August.

I was aware of the extended lifecycle for Parnassius, we have 2 species here, one even flies around my house at the coast, P. clodius.

There may be very basic questions, but no stupid ones, even if it's something I thought everyone knew, like what causes the tides hopefully my
bewildered look didn't betray the initial thought.

No apologies needed- you provided a photo, and a good one- a real rarity here! Most of the time we get fuzzy photos with black dots and they want to know what it is.

With that microscope you can take great photos of all sorts of things- butterfly wing scales, heads & "faces", etc. Share here whatever you do photo.

Hey Chuck Thanks for the reply.

Apologies I should of read the forum rules a little better, but yes I placed my iphone 13 max up to my cheapish Amscope microsope eyepiece that I use to do electronic board level repairs lol, and managed to get it to focus and took a few quick snaps.

I just managed to come across this after a while of searching and the picture matched exactly with the wings etc ! (lepinotus patruelis)

so I think I now have my answer

Thanks Again Chuck

Look forward to finding new creatures unknown to me.

Well you win the Photo We Can Actually See award. What did you use, it wasn't an iPhone. And- you told us both the location and the situation! You can stick around.

They are book lice, or similar. They feed on grain and all manner of things (like dead insects and books), generally in humid environments. They won't hurt you but can be a nuisance.

For the price of bird seed I'd toss the bag and buy new. If your home is warm and humid I wouldn't want them migrating to plants, clothing, books, etc.

For more info, do an internet search on "book lice grain"

Indeed, never replace an old label.

Hello everyone over here @ Insectnet Forum

Could someone please identify what insect these are please ?
there are quite a few of them breeding in my sealed bag of wheat grains

I'm from the UK and bought the bag of seed as bird feed around a year and a half ago. I cannot for the life of me identify them after searching images all over the net. They are tiny, I'd guess around 1mm - 1.5mm.

Any help would be greatfull

Thanks Chrissy

If you translate a label, you should add that to the original label- never replace an original label.

Thank you Mokky, it can also help Japanese / Chinese collectors with labels in a language they don't know (Russian, French, Czech...).

I respect the development of this wonderful app. It will eliminate the frustration you had been feeling for a long time with so many collecting labels only written in Japanese.

I would like to ask my friends and colleagues to make sure that the English translation is also included in their labels from now on.

Of course, as is already mentioned above by another Japanese member, this app is not perfect, so it is a good idea to check with a native speaker just to be sure.

mokky

Thank you!! Found what I needed.

Done, it is back. Thanks Chuck

Thanks for the notice, I think I know what the problem could be. Let me work on that.