P. indra kaibabensis is protected within the boundaries of Grand Canyon National Park, along with all of the other species of Lepidoptera within the park. I believe that outside of the park it is not protected.

Perhaps, if these were old IFTA specimens, they got straatmani from a dealer in the Solomons and put PNG data on them, it wouldn't surprise me, but that's pure speculation.

Chuck wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:15 pm That said, I did find a new ssp of Satyrid in Solomon Islands, separated by only a few KM from a larger island.

Indeed, even a few kilometres can isolate species or subspecies, even for normally relatively strong fliers. I suppose they don't generally want to fly out to sea. Having said that, I seem to remember there are old records of 'migrations' over water for some species.

Adam.

eurytides wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:27 pm Papilio ponceana is the new name.

I was going to point out the same name change. This has been removed from CITES appendix I because it is officially considered as extinct in the USA, which asked for it to be listed.

eurytides wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:27 pm Also, is P. indra kaibabensis protected?

I seem to remember it is, someone here can confirm. I suppose it is State rather than Federal protection?

Adam.

Papilio ponceana is the new name. Also, is P. indra kaibabensis protected?

adamcotton wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:49 pm Sadly, I suspect that the data is erroneous, for any one of many reasons.

Adam.

Occam's Razor would suggest that.

That said, I did find a new ssp of Satyrid in Solomon Islands, separated by only a few KM from a larger island.

And Bougainville's shoreline is nice low jungle, while the mountains rise to 13,000 ft. So there would be several plausible scenarios.

The more I learn the more I realize that nothing is concrete, and the more ignorant I feel.

Sadly, I suspect that the data is erroneous, for any one of many reasons.

Adam.

Chuck wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 1:01 pm The only way I can see C hercules measuring that span is if the wingtip-to-wingtip span was maximized by FW angles way down.

Yes, it is quite likely that Gardiner's measurement was in a natural position, since his book is about rearing live silkmoths.

Chuck wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 1:01 pm I suppose that's why the more serious papers now measure FW along the leading edge.

The generally accepted measurement is from the joint at the base of the forewing to the farthest point at the apex in a straight line, not along the costal edge of the wing.

Adam.

chrisw wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 4:54 pm Chuck this is what is on the data labels for each.

P. t. straatmani Kieta, North Solomon Province, PNG

P. t. toboroi Burka Island, North Solomon Province, PNG

That's interesting! Very!

It's "Buka" Island. "North Solomon Province" is the old name for Bougainville, Buka, and other small islands.

Kieta is on the east coast of Bougainville Island, about 1/3 of the way up the island from Solomon Islands. If you specimen label is correct, and certainly it looks like ssp straatmani, I'm shocked that the ssp would be on Bougainville at all.

Buka Island is off the NW tip of Bougainville. You can almost throw a stone from Buka to Bougainville. So if the labels are correct, it's also surprising that little Buka Passage could separate the two ssp. Or, that both ssp occur on Bougainville.

thejsonboss wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:03 pm

Paul K wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:40 pm All Papilionidae in Ontario are protected

This is good to know. I see the states moving this way in the not so distant future.

Isn't Papilio aristodemus the only papilionid species currently protected in the US?

Chuck wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:08 pm USFWS importers license

It looks like this is for shipping goods commercially, which I am not. I should have specified.

Paul K wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:40 pm All Papilionidae in Ontario are protected

This is good to know. I see the states moving this way in the not so distant future.

Chuck this is what is on the data labels for each.

P. t. straatmani Kieta, North Solomon Province, PNG

P. t. toboroi Burka Island, North Solomon Province, PNG

adamcotton wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:25 am My friend asked me to say thank you for replies. He also pointed out that Gardiner (1982 - A Silkmoth Rearer's Handbook, 3rd Edition) on p. 126 states the size of Coscinocera hercules as 250-360 mm, although Gardiner doesn't say how this was measured. If that is a maximum 360 mm wingspan it would be wider than T. agrippina.

Adam.

The only way I can see C hercules measuring that span is if the wingtip-to-wingtip span was maximized by FW angles way down. In a way, it makes sense as the generally accepted method is with FW rear at 90 degrees, which is unnatural. I suppose that's why the more serious papers now measure FW along the leading edge.

My friend asked me to say thank you for replies. He also pointed out that Gardiner (1982 - A Silkmoth Rearer's Handbook, 3rd Edition) on p. 126 states the size of Coscinocera hercules as 250-360 mm, although Gardiner doesn't say how this was measured. If that is a maximum 360 mm wingspan it would be wider than T. agrippina.

Adam.

adamcotton wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:16 pm D'Abrera (1982) illustrated 2 females. The GART/GloBIS project photographed a pair in the BMNH Type collection which are not the same specimens as those in D'Abrera's book (I have copies of these photos), but these are not available on the Papilio krishna page of the GloBIS website
http://www.globis.insects-online.de/spe ... ree_seq=11

I have not seen any other specimens apart from those in BMNH. Shimogori (1997) did not illustrate this subspecies in his Achillides book.

Adam.

A photo sent to me by my good friend the late Danny Burk

D'Abrera (1982) illustrated 2 females. The GART/GloBIS project photographed a pair in the BMNH Type collection which are not the same specimens as those in D'Abrera's book (I have copies of these photos), but these are not available on the Papilio krishna page of the GloBIS website
http://www.globis.insects-online.de/spe ... ree_seq=11

I have not seen any other specimens apart from those in BMNH. Shimogori (1997) did not illustrate this subspecies in his Achillides book.

Adam.

According to G. Beccaloni (2010), T. agrippina reaches a wingspan of 308 mm (record specimen in a private collection, Ontario), and C. hercules a wingspan of 290.2 (record specimen in the Queensland Museum, Brisbane). C. hercules has the largest wing area of any lepidopteran however, at 288 cm² (estimate made from the record specimen).

I suppose your friend is correct.
T.agrippina is considered the largest Lepidoptera as per wingspan.
I have a specimen which only has 20cm but supposedly they are examples close to 30cm!

Chuck wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:08 pm Note that if the origin of the specimens are Canada, you will probably also need Canadian export approvals. If the specimens have only transited Canada, ummm I don't know. If the specimens are CITES you'll need a CITES from origin and CITES from Canada.

I don’t think there are regulations on export of insects from Canada. I sent few times and declare dry dead insects with no problems. There are simply no laws on both in and out except of course CITES species and protected species.
All Papilionidae in Ontario are protected, other provinces are fine. Apparently there was a good scientific reason to protect all Papilios even though most are very common.
The reason: “they are beautiful butterflies”, very scientific as you can tell.

Short answer: don't bother.

Yes, when importing into USA, even from Canada, one must declare at customs and submit a USFWS 3-177. You will also need a USFWS importers license. Note that if the origin of the specimens are Canada, you will probably also need Canadian export approvals. If the specimens have only transited Canada, ummm I don't know. If the specimens are CITES you'll need a CITES from origin and CITES from Canada.

Some years ago there was (on the archived forum) discussion that there was some "collector's loophole" that allowed import into USA w/o being a licensed USFWS (you still needed to submit 3-177.) I never went back to study CFR to see if this is real or not. This, of course, doesn't change anything concerning export from Canada.

Paul brings up a good (sad) point on importing: when transiting an intermediary country with dead insects, it's not uncommon that one must clear customs and head to another terminal for departure. In that case, you've entered that country, and must clear customs- meaning, you are importing for however short a time, and thus need to comply with all the import/export regulations of the intermediary country. As per Paul's example, one could lose all their specimens.

I too came very close to losing thousands of scientifically valuable specimens when I suddenly found I had to exit an airport only to re-enter. Only because it was late at night at the CITES office didn't answer the phone, and because the customs officer had a shred of common sense and dignity was I allowed through with these specimens and a stern warning that they'd better not show up in their commercial market.

A friend who works at the Entomology Museum, Bangkok, asked me to post on the forum about the moth with the largest wingspan in the world. He was asked by a schoolboy on a trip to the museum, and would like to be able to give the correct answer. He realises that wingspan of a dead specimen depends on how it is spread.

As far as he has found out Coscinocera hercules should be the largest in wing area but other sources state that Thysania agrippina has the largest wingspan. He was surprised to read that T. agrippina could be larger so he asked me to post the question on Insectnet.

Adam.