adamcotton wrote: ↑Mon Dec 02, 2024 7:19 pm That is a superb specimen, especially for a wild caught female. It should be used for breeding to produce even more white specimens than this.

I did occasionally find specimens with a reduced red triangle at the base of the forewing.

Adam.

Though it was not caught by me, the owner has used it breeding to produce more offsprings. I am waiting for seeing more white specimens ^0^

bbalukjian wrote: ↑Mon Dec 02, 2024 6:57 pm I study Tahitian mirids)

That is so cool. Often in French Polynesia I'd note the many different beautifully colored darter (or blenny?) fishes and think that I'll bet some were undescribed. As it turned out, I was right.

Are you stuck with only Tahiti? Not Morea or anywhere else in the country? You should try Tonga's Niuatoputapu, no entomologist has ever been there. I was supposed to go, but bailed out at the last minute and stayed in Tongatapu; good thing too, the two day visit for my friends turned out to be six weeks.

Hi Chuck, yes, everything will be uploaded to BOLD. The turnaround time will depend on how recently the specimen was collected. For fresh material, much faster, for stuff more than 5-10 years old, probably not until late 2025. Thanks.

That is a superb specimen, especially for a wild caught female. It should be used for breeding to produce even more white specimens than this.

I did occasionally find specimens with a reduced red triangle at the base of the forewing.

Adam.

Will these be uploaded to BOLD so they are easily accessible along with other barcodes? What is the turnaround time on the barcode?

Hi all, I'm a miridologist (I study Tahitian mirids) and am also a research associate at the California Academy of Sciences. The California Institute for Biodiversity (CIB), a non-profit organization based in Berkeley, is conducting several All-Taxa Biotic Inventories, including one called the California Insect Barcoding Initiative (CIBI). CIBI aims to create a DNA reference library with a barcode sequence for each of California's known insect species. I am coordinating the project and am looking for two things: (1) anyone who has a curated collection of insects from California that are identified to species who may be willing to loan specimens to have DNA extracted from (of course you will have access to the data that comes out of this!) and (2) anyone who knows of an insect collection in need of rescue/a home, as the CIB has funding for the long-term storage of collections that might otherwise be tossed. I am reachable at bbalukjian@gmail.com. Thanks so much!

Leonard187 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 02, 2024 4:20 pm I found that many female individuals of ssp. anceus on Sumatra have white triangles on the base of forewings instead of red ones

The white triangle theoretically evolved to mimic Atrophaneura hageni.

Leonard187 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 02, 2024 4:20 pm I have seen a specimen from N. Borneo with very strange phenotype just like a tailless one with tailed pattern on the hindwings (f anura), so what is its model? Might be Troides sp.?

Yes, it is believed that some forms of ssp. memnon on Borneo mimic Troides spp.

Leonard187 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 02, 2024 4:20 pm do you have some specimen of ssp. eos?

Yes, and I posted the photo in the archive post I cited above, here it is again. The ssp. eos specimens from Kangean are the males in the middle column and two columns of females to the right.

The first two columns on the left are ssp. memnon from Bawean.

Adam.

adamcotton wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2024 6:52 pm This photo is interesting, it shows how the mimetic patters become less stable in areas of China where the model species (particularly Atrophaneura for the tailless forms) do not occur.

The white form (bottom row right specimen) occurs occasionally naturally in Mukdaharn, NE Thailand, and rarely further west in Thailand and in Laos. I selectively bred this form, and eventually much whiter than this, from breeding stock I obtained from Phrae, as well as many different forms, some similar to the above, some different.

Basically this shows how the phenotype is very plastic, but is controlled in nature by predator pressure. Birds (and maybe other predators such as lizards) in a local area will avoid attacking those forms that closely resemble any local distasteful species. As a result any other form that may arise tends to be selected out (= gets eaten) and over time stable forms are established that mimic the local models very closely.

Interestingly in most places form butlerianus is rather rare. The genes that control this form are recessive to agenor and distantianus and it is only common where the model for form butlerianus occurs (these are female A. astorion astorion in NE India and female A. astorion varuna in the Malay Peninsula). Interestingly where these models occur the recessive 'super-gene' is so common that 50% or more of females are form butlerianus.

Adam.

About the white one, I saw a wild-caught female with very white wings. It is attractive due to the white pattern on the cells on hindwings, and the red triangles seem to decreased.

adamcotton wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2024 6:28 pm
Yes and yes. As I just posted yesterday, ssp. memnon has a tailed form in Java as well as tailless forms (the same in Bali), but in Borneo the same ssp. only has tailless forms, and they are not identical to those in Java.
Ssp. anceus in Sumatra also has both tailed and tailless forms, but the tailless ones tend to be more common, similarly ssp. eos from Kangean Island, not far from Java can have tailed females, but the various subspecies in the Lesser Sunda Islands east of Bali all only have tailless subspecies.
Subspecies lowii in Palawan is always tailed in both sexes, and interestingly males in Balabac Island (between Borneo and Palawan) range between tailed to tailless and in between.
Subspecies mayo in the Andaman Islands, previously regarded as a separate species, has a tailless male with a distinctive blue hindwing patch, but the female is always tailed, a mimic of the Andaman endemic Losaria rhodifer. There are no tailless forms there, and no tailless models.

Interestingly ssp. memnon was introduced to Ceram and Buru very many years ago (probably on Citrus plants with migrant Javanese), and both tailed and tailless forms still occur there. Luckily they didn't hybridise with the closely related local species Papilio deiphobus.

Adam.

Thanks for the corrections by Adam. I didn't pay much attention to the genus Atrophaneura and I will learn it carefully in the future. It is interested that I found that many female individuals of ssp. anceus on Sumatra have white triangles on the base of forewings instead of red ones distributed on the other islands，not only tailless ones but also tailed (Of course there are still some red ones on this island).

I have seen a specimen from N. Borneo with very strange phenotype just like a tailless one with tailed pattern on the hindwings (f anura), so what is its model? Might be Troides sp.?

Another question, do you have some specimen of ssp. eos? I've not ever seen this ssp before ^0^

Thanks

Chuck,

As I said above:

adamcotton wrote: ↑Sat Nov 30, 2024 7:24 pm one is tailless with a black abdomen and a range of different wing patterns very closely associated with these characters depending on the local distasteful Atrophaneura model species (often more than one)
and
the other is tailed with an orange/yellow sided abdomen and the wing pattern mimics the local Pachliopta or Losaria.

These characters are so closely placed on the same chromosomes that 'mixed forms' almost never (extremely rarely) occur - for instance there are only 3 recorded specimens of a tailed form distantianus with a black abdomen.
Clarke, Sheppard & Thornton (1968) investigated the genetics of the then single species and coined the term 'super-gene' for this bundle of characters.
See
https://www.jstor.org/stable/2416804
for the abstract and some further information
and
https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/ ... .1971.0109
for similar information about a subsequent paper by Clarke & Sheppard in 1971.

Basically, this means that the genes controlling the two basic forms are closely bundled together on the same part of the same chromosome so that the 'super-gene' bundle is almost always unchanged during gamete formation (cell division forming sperm and egg cells).

You asked:

Chuck wrote: ↑Mon Dec 02, 2024 1:07 pm I presume these two different forms are genetic, thus parents with tails (for example) will produce offspring with tails. True?

Actually, not necessarily! It would all depend on which 'super-genes' each parent is carrying and whether one is dominant over the other or not. Parents may carry one 'super-gene' on one side of the chromosome and one on the other or they may carry the same 'super-gene' on both sides of the chromosome, so when they mate there can be more than one offspring phenotype.

Adam.

adamcotton wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2024 6:28 pm
ssp. memnon has a tailed form in Java as well as tailless forms

In such a (relatively) small place, what is the driver for two different forms? Is it altitude or another environmental element? North/ south?

I presume these two different forms are genetic, thus parents with tails (for example) will produce offspring with tails. True?

I long ago quit trying to figure out memnon, back before the internet, and quit tracking developments. This now though is rather interesting.

Thanks.

This photo is interesting, it shows how the mimetic patters become less stable in areas of China where the model species (particularly Atrophaneura for the tailless forms) do not occur.

The white form (bottom row right specimen) occurs occasionally naturally in Mukdaharn, NE Thailand, and rarely further west in Thailand and in Laos. I selectively bred this form, and eventually much whiter than this, from breeding stock I obtained from Phrae, as well as many different forms, some similar to the above, some different.

Basically this shows how the phenotype is very plastic, but is controlled in nature by predator pressure. Birds (and maybe other predators such as lizards) in a local area will avoid attacking those forms that closely resemble any local distasteful species. As a result any other form that may arise tends to be selected out (= gets eaten) and over time stable forms are established that mimic the local models very closely.

Interestingly in most places form butlerianus is rather rare. The genes that control this form are recessive to agenor and distantianus and it is only common where the model for form butlerianus occurs (these are female A. astorion astorion in NE India and female A. astorion varuna in the Malay Peninsula). Interestingly where these models occur the recessive 'super-gene' is so common that 50% or more of females are form butlerianus.

Adam.

While on the topic of T. magellanus, I would like to ask if anyone knows if there is a way to visually distinguish the nominate subspecies and T. magellanus sonani? While a specimen's collection data would more accurately and definitively put that matter to rest, I was wondering if there was a consistent/reliable way to differentiate the two by simply viewing a specimen.

From the photos I have been able to find online, it seems that subspecies sonani tends to be "shorter" i.e. that the forewings are smaller in terms of measurement from apex to dorsum. Additionally, from my cursory viewings, subspecies sonani features more ovate forewings, in contrast to subspecies magellanus, in which the hindwings are noticeably more falcate.

I'm also aware of the existence of two other proposed subspecies as per Okano and Ohkura (1978) namely T. magellanus apoensis and T. magellanus leytensis, though I believe they have also been synonymized with the nominate subspecies, despite still being listed as valid on Wikispecies among other online sources. I'm mainly interested in the differences (if any) between the T. magellanus that occur in the Philippines versus those that occur in Taiwan.

Looking for insight on this - thanks!

Chuck wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2024 12:59 am Memnon has subspecies. So does any given ssp have both tailed an tailless forms? Does that the. Depend on location?

Yes and yes. As I just posted yesterday, ssp. memnon has a tailed form in Java as well as tailless forms (the same in Bali), but in Borneo the same ssp. only has tailless forms, and they are not identical to those in Java.
Ssp. anceus in Sumatra also has both tailed and tailless forms, but the tailless ones tend to be more common, similarly ssp. eos from Kangean Island, not far from Java can have tailed females, but the various subspecies in the Lesser Sunda Islands east of Bali all only have tailless subspecies.
Subspecies lowii in Palawan is always tailed in both sexes, and interestingly males in Balabac Island (between Borneo and Palawan) range between tailed to tailless and in between.
Subspecies mayo in the Andaman Islands, previously regarded as a separate species, has a tailless male with a distinctive blue hindwing patch, but the female is always tailed, a mimic of the Andaman endemic Losaria rhodifer. There are no tailless forms there, and no tailless models.

Interestingly ssp. memnon was introduced to Ceram and Buru very many years ago (probably on Citrus plants with migrant Javanese), and both tailed and tailless forms still occur there. Luckily they didn't hybridise with the closely related local species Papilio deiphobus.

Adam.

Thank you !

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adamcotton wrote: ↑Sat Nov 30, 2024 7:00 pm I bred some of these many years ago here, it is indeed an aberrant form butlerianus (the recessive form that mimics Atrophaneura astorion female, with a white band along the lower edge of the forewing) with hindwings that look like form phoenix.

Note the malformed forewing is a result of a misshapen right wing case when the pupa was formed. I saw this every so often in agenor, and not always the same shape.

Adam.

Thanks for your kind reply, Adam. It is very lucky for me having a chance to learn so much from you ^0^. About f.phoenix, I only saw two specimen from your post previously. So what is the 'character' of this form ? Can this specimen I post here be named as f. butlerianus-phoenix ? Of course I also have seen many specimen with 'transitional' phenotype between two typical form and I do not know how to name their form.
I also have a question. I noticed that there are many white individuals in Guangdong, Guangxi, and Hainan, but similar phenotype can not be seen in the other part of China. Are they all named as f.agenor ?

Thank you Kevin

Can we sail this waaay back a notch?

Forget agenor to avoid my confusion and let’s stick with memnon.

Memnon has subspecies. So does any given ssp have both tailed an tailless forms? Does that the. Depend on location?

Thanks.

I live in Chiang Mai, Thailand, and not only do we have numerous small house geckoes, Hemidactylus, but also several giant Tokay Gekko gecko under the eaves and all around outside. Tokay geckoes are named for their mating call "tokay ... tokay ... tokay ..." - the larger they are the more they repeat the call in a single series. The largest can be about 30cm long. The Hemidactylus have a strange "tutt, tutt, tutt" mating call rather like an exasperated sound you might make with your tongue behind your teeth or a low chuckle.

It is absolutely impossible to get rid of the house geckoes, and actually they will eat most small insects that get inside, including mosquitoes, so they do a good job for you anyway. House geckoes lay eggs in any small hidden space they can find, and the tiny hatchlings emerge maybe about August or September here, when there are many insects around. It is physically impossible to catch all of them, and you can't trap them.

Adam.