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Topic: 2022 Collecting | Author: jmoths | Replies: 1 | Views: 2
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jmoths
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2022 Collecting

by jmoths » Thu Oct 06, 2022 1:45 am

Hello everyone! :)
Response to my absence: I hope I am still remembered by some, I have taken time off this forum not because it was desired, but because I couldn't figure out how to log in with my new account. (The log in for the old page for some reason didn't match up with the new page's log in.) I also contacted the moderators by email but now looking at the email it failed to send... I'm back now, after using the exact same log in. Don't know if I found out the way to log in or the setup changed.

Now that the ideal collecting season is closing, and collectors are putting away their equipment, How was this year in terms of lepidoptera collection for everyone? I'm curious how it went as I collected very little in 2022. Was the season overall good or bad? What were some highlights/discoveries you made?
Topic: Genetic-linked polymodal emergence | Author: Chuck | Replies: 2 | Views: 15
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jhyatt
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Re: Genetic-linked polymodal emergence

by jhyatt » Thu Oct 06, 2022 12:05 am

Very interesting, Chuck. I have always been amazed that the "3rd brood" of marcellus in my area is very rare compared to the spring and midsummer broods... and the spring brood is by far the most common. How does a rare late summer/early fall brood lead to an abundant spring brood? Maybe
it's been known for ages that these aren't really "broods", sensu stricto. Just a bi- or poly-modal emergence pattern? Guess I need to read the really old literature. It's awful being ignorant!

Cheers,
jh
Topic: Genetic-linked polymodal emergence | Author: Chuck | Replies: 2 | Views: 15
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Chuck
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Genetic-linked polymodal emergence

by Chuck » Wed Oct 05, 2022 9:05 pm

The Tiger Swallowtails (Papilio glaucus) of Upstate NY and Ontario CA exhibit a bimodal emergence; this has of late been attributed to the later flight being called "Mid Summer Tiger Swallowtail" (MST) by the Canadians, and many of you know I have a running thread on this.

But I stumbled on this in the paper Polymodal emergence of the tiger swallowtail, Papilio glaucus (Lepidoptera: Papilionidae): source of a false second generation in central New York State ROBERT H. HAGEN and ROBERT C. LEDERHOUSE* 1985:

early recognition of polymodal emergence in Eurytides rnarcellus was due solely to phenological differences in the adults associated with emergence time (Edwards, 1897). Our results suggest that polymodal emergence within a season may be masked by its resemblance to a truly bivoltine life cycle.

Looking for this paper I stumbled on POLYMORPHIC TERMINATION OF DIPAUSE in' CECROPIA: GENETIC AND GEOGRAPHICAL ASPECTS G. P. WALDBAUER AND J. G. STERNBURG 1973. This paper demonstrates that (at least in part of Illinois in 1970s) cecropia were split into two distinct groups which had different emergence periods. One group did not beget the other; the first group's offspring would emerge when the parents did, and the second group likewise. In other words, the early group would always emerge early, never later- so it's not like one generation emerging at two periods, it's two separate generations emerging at two separate times.

Further, the above reference states: It has long been known that the emergence of the zebra swallowtail (Eurytides mar cell us) from overwintering pupae is bimodal, and that in this case the dimorphism involves color and form as well as physiology (Scudder, 1889,pages 1273- 1278).

It may have been known, or as put in another publication "we've known" a long time that the "spring form" and "summer form" of marcellus are not two generations of progeny from the same group, but in fact are separate groups that have different morphology, however NOBODY EVER TOLD ME.

That cecropia exhibits bimodal emergence is amazing to me. I wonder if the spring and summer forms of luna are bimodal emergence.

Anyone have any more insights into this thing that's been kept secret from me?
Topic: Caterpillars of Various Types | Author: bethanyfarah | Replies: 4 | Views: 63
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Re: Caterpillars of Various Types

by livingplanet3 » Wed Oct 05, 2022 2:41 pm

bethanyfarah wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:22 am ...This guy was huge! The only other caterpillars I've seen this size are late instar Manduca sexta. It was black and had long white hairs in bands, but didn't see if it had a horn on it's tail. It was feeding on an oak tree and creating a ton of poop (I actually saw the poop first)
This caterpillar is probably in the family Lasiocampinae, and is possibly Dicogaster coronada -

https://bugguide.net/node/view/172116

https://www.butterfliesandmoths.org/spe ... r-coronada

Females of this species can have a wingspan of up to 13 cm.
Topic: Caterpillars of Various Types | Author: bethanyfarah | Replies: 4 | Views: 63
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Re: Caterpillars of Various Types

by bethanyfarah » Wed Oct 05, 2022 1:43 pm

Thanks Chuck, I'll try that next time. Usually with a bit of patience I can get the camera to focus by switching back and forth from macro to standard, changing angle etc. But a member of my hiking group was feeling ill and I had to leave so no time for proper focusing and now I can't id these guys. Ah well maybe one day I'll figure it out or find someone who knows.

Do you know which families of leps get as big as a Manduca sexta? It's can't be very many right? Also are feces a good way to id caterpillars?
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Re: Is it possible for a green colored chrysalis of Papilio polyxenes to diapause?

by Chuck » Wed Oct 05, 2022 11:45 am

Impact of environment- temperature, daylight, etc discussed in this paper. Below is an excerpt.

The role of latitudinal, genetic and temperature variation
in the induction of diapause of Papilio glaucus (Lepidoptera:
Papilionidae)
Sean F. Ryan1,2, Patti Valella3,4, Gabrielle Thivierge1, Matthew L. Aardema3,5 and J. Mark Scriber3,6
1Department of Biological Sciences, University of Notre Dame, Notre Dame, Indiana, USA; 2USDA-ARS Center for Medical, Agricultural,
and Veterinary Entomology, 1600/1700 Southwest 23rd Drive, Gainesville, Florida, USA; 3Department of Entomology, Michigan State
University, East Lansing, Michigan, USA; 4Life Science Department, Long Beach City College, Long Beach, California, USA; 5Sackler
Institute for Comparative Genomics, American Museum of Natural History, New York, New York, USA and 6McGuire Center for Lepidoptera
and Diversity, University of Florida, Gainesville, Florida, USA
Abstract A key adaptation in insects for dealing with variable environmental conditions is
the ability to diapause. The tiger swallowtail butterflies, Papilio glaucus and P. canadensis
are ideal species to explore the genetic causes and population genetic consequences of
diapause because divergence in this trait is believed to be a salient factor in maintaining
a hybrid zone between these species. Yet little is known about the factors that influence
diapause induction in this system. Here we explored how spatial (latitudinal), environmental
(temperature) and genetic (hybridization) factors affect diapause induction in this system.
Specifically, a series of growth chamber experiments using wild caught individuals from
across the eastern United States were performed to: (1) evaluate how critical photoperiod
varies with latitude, (2) isolate the stage in which induction occurs, (3) test whether changes
in temperature affected rates of diapause induction, and (4) explore how the incidence of
diapause is affected in hybrid offspring. We find that induction occurs in the larval stage, is
not sensitive to a relatively broad range of temperatures, appears to have a complex genetic
basis (i.e., is not simply a dominant trait following a Mendelian inheritance pattern) and
that the critical photoperiod increases by 0.4 h with each increasing degree in latitude.
This work deepens our understanding of how spatial, environmental and genetic variation
influences a key seasonal adaptation (diapause induction) in a well-developed ecological
model system and will make possible future studies that explore how climatic variation
affects the population dynamics and genetics of this system.
Key words adaptation; critical photoperiod; development; diapauses; facultative;
hybridization
Topic: Heard of MRAP insects? | Author: WingedWishes | Replies: 2 | Views: 50
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Re: Heard of MRAP insects?

by lepman1256 » Wed Oct 05, 2022 11:23 am

I have purchased from this young woman, and received items. Packaging was poor as I asked for extra packing to be done on skeletons, and they still came broken. There was too much movement within the box. Invoice in box listed miscellaneous "heads" instead of an itemized list. She did suggest I do an E dec form, which I did not do, so she does have that going for her. First time ever a package was opened and inspected both in Indonesia and the U.S. before I received it. I will continue purchasing from more reliable Indo sources.
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Re: Is it possible for a green colored chrysalis of Papilio polyxenes to diapause?

by eurytides » Wed Oct 05, 2022 3:00 am

erotavlas wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 10:53 pm
eurytides wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 8:42 pm Pupal color will not correlate with diapause with this species. Hold a strong light, like from a phone camera, to the head of the pupa and transilluminate. If you don’t see dark areas where the eyes are going to form after 15 days, it’s going to diapause.
I'm not sure which end the eyes are, but this was the best I could do. The top part was pretty opaque so I didn't bother trying to get closer with the flashlight in that area.

To me it looks very translucent in the middle and also at the very end
The light is shining through the wings. The eyes will form at the top of the pupa.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/phys.org/ne ... ysalis.amp
Topic: Heard of MRAP insects? | Author: WingedWishes | Replies: 2 | Views: 50
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Heard of MRAP insects?

by WingedWishes » Wed Oct 05, 2022 2:30 am

There is a person on Instagram selling insects from Indonesia. I am waiting for some more information but I wanted to know if any of you have heard of it this dealer. The Instagram handle is MRAP insects.

To everyone else,
This is how you prevent getting scammed. Ask for references in the forum BEFORE you place an order.
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Paul K
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Re: Is it possible for a green colored chrysalis of Papilio polyxenes to diapause?

by Paul K » Wed Oct 05, 2022 1:55 am

erotavlas wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 10:53 pm
eurytides wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 8:42 pm Pupal color will not correlate with diapause with this species. Hold a strong light, like from a phone camera, to the head of the pupa and transilluminate. If you don’t see dark areas where the eyes are going to form after 15 days, it’s going to diapause.
I'm not sure which end the eyes are, but this was the best I could do. The top part was pretty opaque so I didn't bother trying to get closer with the flashlight in that area.

To me it looks very translucent in the middle and also at the very end
The head is always at the opposite end to where pupa is attached to something, it is applied only to pupa of butterflies as moth’s larvae are not attaching them self like butterflies
Topic: Presentation | Author: wollastoni | Replies: 31 | Views: 892
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Re: Presentation

by Paul K » Tue Oct 04, 2022 11:27 pm

erotavlas wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:33 pm Greetings. I'm from Ontario Canada and I like to raise several Monarchs and Swallowtail every summer. It's interesting to observe and photograph them changing through their life stages.
Keep in mind that Danaus plexippus and all Papilio species are protected in Ontario. So even if you don’t keep them as specimen you should not announce it.
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Re: Is it possible for a green colored chrysalis of Papilio polyxenes to diapause?

by erotavlas » Tue Oct 04, 2022 10:53 pm

eurytides wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 8:42 pm Pupal color will not correlate with diapause with this species. Hold a strong light, like from a phone camera, to the head of the pupa and transilluminate. If you don’t see dark areas where the eyes are going to form after 15 days, it’s going to diapause.
I'm not sure which end the eyes are, but this was the best I could do. The top part was pretty opaque so I didn't bother trying to get closer with the flashlight in that area.

To me it looks very translucent in the middle and also at the very end
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Topic: Lep meeting at Cornell, quick review w/ photos | Author: Chuck | Replies: 4 | Views: 78
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Re: Lep meeting at Cornell, quick review w/ photos

by eurytides » Tue Oct 04, 2022 8:49 pm

Awesome stuff Chuck. Thanks for sharing.
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Re: Is it possible for a green colored chrysalis of Papilio polyxenes to diapause?

by eurytides » Tue Oct 04, 2022 8:42 pm

Pupal color will not correlate with diapause with this species. Hold a strong light, like from a phone camera, to the head of the pupa and transilluminate. If you don’t see dark areas where the eyes are going to form after 15 days, it’s going to diapause.
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Re: Is it possible for a green colored chrysalis of Papilio polyxenes to diapause?

by kevinkk » Tue Oct 04, 2022 7:32 pm

my experiences with Papilio polyxenes, trolius and I think Eurytides marcellus, all will produce either green or brown pupa, the color making no difference in anything at all.
I'd agree that day length is more of a factor with what caterpillars do when they mature. While temperatures are going to
have an effect, it's day length, animals tell time that way. That way, they don't get off track by a few weeks of warm weather in the winter or
fall.
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Re: Is it possible for a green colored chrysalis of Papilio polyxenes to diapause?

by adamcotton » Tue Oct 04, 2022 6:39 pm

bobw wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 3:21 pm I don't know if P. polyxenes is the same, but with the closely related European P. machaon, the colour is pretty random. Both brown and green pupae will overwinter or some may emerge, the main deciding factors are temperature and daylength.
I agree with Bob. In the machaon group daylength is very important, probably more than temperature if you are talking about ~20C rather than ~30C. If the daylength is shortening during 4th to 5th instar diapause will be triggered.

I recommend you keep the pupa in the solarium for a few weeks, just in case it has not gone into diapause. If it has not emerged by the time you need to put on the heating you should put it in a sealed plastic box (no air holes!) and put that in the veggie compartment in the fridge. Cut the twig it is pupating on just above and below the pupa, and then in spring you can attach the twig to the inside of a cage for it to emerge. You can take the pupa out of the fridge in spring and it should emerge about two weeks later.

Do let us know what happens.

Adam
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Re: Is it possible for a green colored chrysalis of Papilio polyxenes to diapause?

by bobw » Tue Oct 04, 2022 3:21 pm

I don't know if P. polyxenes is the same, but with the closely related European P. machaon, the colour is pretty random. Both brown and green pupae will overwinter or some may emerge, the main deciding factors are temperature and daylength.
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Re: Is it possible for a green colored chrysalis of Papilio polyxenes to diapause?

by Chuck » Tue Oct 04, 2022 3:01 pm

With nature, anything is possible.

Stay away from using absolutes, or sources that do. "always/never/all/none" is invariably bound to be discredited; it doesn't matter if you're talking about butterfly pupae or Corvette production options.

Of the thousands of Actias luna I raised, about 5% of pupae would refuse to emerge the following summer, and continue on through a second winter. One of our Canadian members experienced 2 winter dipause with Papilio.

I would not expect yours at 20C to emerge immediately, though it may emerge very early (December? March?). If you simply put it outside it will probably be eaten. I typically put pupae in tupperware with holes to allow some airflow and stick them in the garage; others put them in the refrigerator with good success.

Note too, the link you provided as reference to the pupae color is discussing the west coast Papilio zelicaon, not your Papilio polyxenes.
Topic: Breeding: Favonius quercus | Author: wolf | Replies: 3 | Views: 44
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Re: Breeding: Favonius quercus

by wolf » Tue Oct 04, 2022 2:32 pm

Cabintom wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 11:36 am I'm curious, what do you do with the adult specimens?
I keep a few specimens for my collection. The rest i release back into nature. Ofc there are some exceptions, like the northern species i've bred. For practical and economical reasons i cant rly go back to the north every year to release them, so i kept all the specimens for my collection.
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Is it possible for a green colored chrysalis of Papilio polyxenes to diapause?

by erotavlas » Tue Oct 04, 2022 2:21 pm

I found one of the last eastern black swallowtail eggs of the season back in early September and decided to do a photo/video project to document the life stages. It is kept in a solarium so it has exposure to the normal day/night cycle. Temperatures in the room are not too warm by the window probably below 20 C, I don't have the heat on. Outside it is of course much colder, below 10 C at night, but in the day it is high teens up to 20 C.

It is currently in chrysalis form and I don't know if it's going to eclose now or it is in diapause. It formed the chrysalis on September 19 and so today it is 15 days since. I would like to know if I should put it outside and resume the project in the spring, or wait a few more days for it to eclose.

What makes this difficult to determine is that it's colour is contrary to all the information I found on various sites. For one it is said that the chrysalis will take on the colour that matches the substrate. So brown substrate = brown chrysalis. Same with green. However mine is the opposite green chrysalis on brown substrate.

Furthermore I found this site which claims that "ALL diapausing chrysalises in this species will turn brown no matter what their substrate color." I do not know if this is true or not.

So my question Is it possible that not ALL diapausing chrysalises turn brown and some remain green?
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