Thank you for posting these photos of very important specimens.

Firstly the Batang - 'Mangkang' border specimen is from the type locality of archias (Batang, not 'Fou Lin' as stated by Fruhstorfer), and this is a first generation specimen (from May - note the broad black dorsal band on the abdomen). The type and other specimens I have seen (photos) are summer generation (July-August). Note that the data label is a little confused - Batang is in Sichuan not Tibet, and 'Mangkang' is correctly Markam County, Tibet, which is immediately west of Batang - the westernmost county in Sichuan. 'Mangkang' is the Han Chinese name for Markam. So Sichuan and Tibet are swapped on the label. The border locality is on the Jinsha River south of Batang. Byasa daemonius and Iphiclides podalirinus also occur there, but fly in June.

I have already asked the seller about the Gongga Shan locality (the specimen at the top of the thread is from the same lot). He told me that they came from a local catcher, and he is asking precisely where the locality is. These also look similar to archias, but possibly may not be that taxon, as the location is far from Batang with a very dry plateau at Litang separating the two populations and a totally different taxon 'neochinensis Sheljuzkho (an unavailable name) in Jiulong County to the west of Gongga Shan, i.e. between the two populations.

Adam.

Leonard187 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2024 12:59 pm it seems really different with its model Atrophaneura hageni, so does it use its white triangles to mimic the white head of A.hageni?

Exactly, and the silvery hindwings mimic the female of Atrophaneura nox in Sumatra. It's a case of two different warning patterns combined in the same mimic, sort of like the flashing lights on an ambulance telling the predator to keep away.

Leonard187 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2024 12:59 pm my friend has a tailed one also with white triangles which is really interesting, though I think it should also mimic L. coon.

I seem to remember this came from W Sumatra, where the yellow L. coon does not occur, but perhaps it is from S Sumatra, where L. coon is found in the far south. The pale hindwing spots (even though in the wrong position) combined with the white 'head' sends two signals.

Leonard187 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2024 12:59 pm Is picture 3 named as f.anura? It is not really seems like a Troides spp.

No, form anura is rather different to this, although the hindwing markings are in a similar position, but they are cream tinged with orange (I suppose this may look bright yellow in flight), the underside is creamy with large black spots (like the Troides female) and it comes from Mt. Kinabalu, Borneo, not Sumatra.
I think this Sumatran form is actually derived from the originally tailed form which has lost the tails (note the pale sides to the abdomen), and it may well mimic a Troides female too. Basically this means the gene to include tails has been 'switched off'.

Adam.

Chuck wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2024 6:58 pm That’s amazing, two forms within the same population mimicking two different inedibles. What a trip. No wonder people have studied them so intently. Thanks Adam. I’ll leave you alone now.

There are usually at least 2 different tailless forms, mimicking tailless models, as well as the tailed one mimicking a tailed model.

Adam.

That’s amazing, two forms within the same population mimicking two different inedibles. What a trip. No wonder people have studied them so intently. Thanks Adam. I’ll leave you alone now.

Chuck wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2024 1:15 pm That is quite amazing. I wonder if one form will prevail, given that one is a mimic and the other (I presume) is not.

No, in nature both tailed and tailless forms are mimetic, the tailed forms mimic Pachliopta and Losaria, whereas the different tailless forms mimic several Atrophaneura, so they all should survive by predators not attacking them.

On the other hand, in places where no tailless distasteful Troidini models occur it is likely that the tailless ones may be eaten and the tailed ones avoided. However, that was not the scenario that I was replying to in this case.

Chuck wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2024 1:15 pm Adam, does anyone, including institutions, have a collection to rival yours?

Most definitely there are many much better collections than mine. I seem to remember that the Clarke/Sheppard collection of experimental rearing is in the NHM, London, where of course they also hold huge collections of wild specimens from just about everywhere.

Also there are some huge collections (both private and institutional) in Japan, and I know of one private collection at least in the US that has a better collection than mine.

Adam.

This malformation of the forewing costa was caused by incomplete closure of the forewing case on the right side of the pupa after shedding the pre-pupal skin.

If these specimens originate from southern Xishuangbanna the white inner hindwing edge is part of the mimicry of Losaria doubledayi which occurs nearby in Laos. This is true f. distantianus, whereas the darker form which mimics Pachliopta aristolochiae in China is called alcanor. Form alcanor particularly has a short white patch inside the hindwing cell, whereas distantianus has an elongate white patch in the cell.

Adam.

PS. Note that mayo is now a subspecies of Papilio memnon, rather than a separate species, and does not belong to P. agenor.

I've got several specimens farmed in Xishuangbanna, Yunnan. And some of them are malformed but with very interesting phenotypes. This tailed one is asymmetrical but the white pattern on hindwings is different with typical f. distantianus. The pattern seems much like the one of female P. agenor mayo ^0^, especially it has very slender tails.

https://x.com/larrymadowo/status/186392 ... 38873?s=48
or

adamcotton wrote: ↑Mon Dec 02, 2024 2:30 pm

Chuck wrote: ↑Mon Dec 02, 2024 1:07 pm I presume these two different forms are genetic, thus parents with tails (for example) will produce offspring with tails. True?

Actually, not necessarily! It would all depend on which 'super-genes' each parent is carrying and whether one is dominant over the other or not. Parents may carry one 'super-gene' on one side of the chromosome and one on the other or they may carry the same 'super-gene' on both sides of the chromosome, so when they mate there can be more than one offspring phenotype.

Adam.

That is quite amazing. I wonder if one form will prevail, given that one is a mimic and the other (I presume) is not.

This all is amazing, study I've avoided. Adam, does anyone, including institutions, have a collection to rival yours?

adamcotton wrote: ↑Mon Dec 02, 2024 6:27 pm The white triangle theoretically evolved to mimic Atrophaneura hageni.

Thanks Adam. However, it seems really different with its model Atrophaneura hageni, so does it use its white triangles to mimic the white head of A.hageni?
As picture 2 below, my friend has a tailed one also with white triangles which is really interesting, though I think it should also mimic L. coon.
Is picture 3 named as f.anura? It is not really seems like a Troides spp.

Well, back to everesti - archias - verityi . I understand Wu Ming Hsuan uncertainity. Gongga Shan is outside area mentioned in 4th part of Papilionidae from Omnes Artes series. Also appearance is somewhat in middle ... not exactly 100% matching any of taxons.
I have series from same locality ( unprepared for now ) and there are visible also some variability for some keymark ( especially prominency of black margin under red anal eye ). Also they are definitly more yellowish than pale yellow that archias should be, but that can be due to specimens are not fresh.
Also added one specimen from locality more western ( where archias should be present ), but I think it is not everesti alpherakyi as I have those and they are significantly smaller with smaller tails and also with darker markings.

Jan

adamcotton wrote: ↑Mon Dec 02, 2024 7:19 pm That is a superb specimen, especially for a wild caught female. It should be used for breeding to produce even more white specimens than this.

I did occasionally find specimens with a reduced red triangle at the base of the forewing.

Adam.

Though it was not caught by me, the owner has used it breeding to produce more offsprings. I am waiting for seeing more white specimens ^0^

bbalukjian wrote: ↑Mon Dec 02, 2024 6:57 pm I study Tahitian mirids)

That is so cool. Often in French Polynesia I'd note the many different beautifully colored darter (or blenny?) fishes and think that I'll bet some were undescribed. As it turned out, I was right.

Are you stuck with only Tahiti? Not Morea or anywhere else in the country? You should try Tonga's Niuatoputapu, no entomologist has ever been there. I was supposed to go, but bailed out at the last minute and stayed in Tongatapu; good thing too, the two day visit for my friends turned out to be six weeks.

Hi Chuck, yes, everything will be uploaded to BOLD. The turnaround time will depend on how recently the specimen was collected. For fresh material, much faster, for stuff more than 5-10 years old, probably not until late 2025. Thanks.

That is a superb specimen, especially for a wild caught female. It should be used for breeding to produce even more white specimens than this.

I did occasionally find specimens with a reduced red triangle at the base of the forewing.

Adam.

Will these be uploaded to BOLD so they are easily accessible along with other barcodes? What is the turnaround time on the barcode?

Hi all, I'm a miridologist (I study Tahitian mirids) and am also a research associate at the California Academy of Sciences. The California Institute for Biodiversity (CIB), a non-profit organization based in Berkeley, is conducting several All-Taxa Biotic Inventories, including one called the California Insect Barcoding Initiative (CIBI). CIBI aims to create a DNA reference library with a barcode sequence for each of California's known insect species. I am coordinating the project and am looking for two things: (1) anyone who has a curated collection of insects from California that are identified to species who may be willing to loan specimens to have DNA extracted from (of course you will have access to the data that comes out of this!) and (2) anyone who knows of an insect collection in need of rescue/a home, as the CIB has funding for the long-term storage of collections that might otherwise be tossed. I am reachable at bbalukjian@gmail.com. Thanks so much!

Leonard187 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 02, 2024 4:20 pm I found that many female individuals of ssp. anceus on Sumatra have white triangles on the base of forewings instead of red ones

The white triangle theoretically evolved to mimic Atrophaneura hageni.

Leonard187 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 02, 2024 4:20 pm I have seen a specimen from N. Borneo with very strange phenotype just like a tailless one with tailed pattern on the hindwings (f anura), so what is its model? Might be Troides sp.?

Yes, it is believed that some forms of ssp. memnon on Borneo mimic Troides spp.

Leonard187 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 02, 2024 4:20 pm do you have some specimen of ssp. eos?

Yes, and I posted the photo in the archive post I cited above, here it is again. The ssp. eos specimens from Kangean are the males in the middle column and two columns of females to the right.

The first two columns on the left are ssp. memnon from Bawean.

Adam.

adamcotton wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2024 6:52 pm This photo is interesting, it shows how the mimetic patters become less stable in areas of China where the model species (particularly Atrophaneura for the tailless forms) do not occur.

The white form (bottom row right specimen) occurs occasionally naturally in Mukdaharn, NE Thailand, and rarely further west in Thailand and in Laos. I selectively bred this form, and eventually much whiter than this, from breeding stock I obtained from Phrae, as well as many different forms, some similar to the above, some different.

Basically this shows how the phenotype is very plastic, but is controlled in nature by predator pressure. Birds (and maybe other predators such as lizards) in a local area will avoid attacking those forms that closely resemble any local distasteful species. As a result any other form that may arise tends to be selected out (= gets eaten) and over time stable forms are established that mimic the local models very closely.

Interestingly in most places form butlerianus is rather rare. The genes that control this form are recessive to agenor and distantianus and it is only common where the model for form butlerianus occurs (these are female A. astorion astorion in NE India and female A. astorion varuna in the Malay Peninsula). Interestingly where these models occur the recessive 'super-gene' is so common that 50% or more of females are form butlerianus.

Adam.

About the white one, I saw a wild-caught female with very white wings. It is attractive due to the white pattern on the cells on hindwings, and the red triangles seem to decreased.

adamcotton wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2024 6:28 pm
Yes and yes. As I just posted yesterday, ssp. memnon has a tailed form in Java as well as tailless forms (the same in Bali), but in Borneo the same ssp. only has tailless forms, and they are not identical to those in Java.
Ssp. anceus in Sumatra also has both tailed and tailless forms, but the tailless ones tend to be more common, similarly ssp. eos from Kangean Island, not far from Java can have tailed females, but the various subspecies in the Lesser Sunda Islands east of Bali all only have tailless subspecies.
Subspecies lowii in Palawan is always tailed in both sexes, and interestingly males in Balabac Island (between Borneo and Palawan) range between tailed to tailless and in between.
Subspecies mayo in the Andaman Islands, previously regarded as a separate species, has a tailless male with a distinctive blue hindwing patch, but the female is always tailed, a mimic of the Andaman endemic Losaria rhodifer. There are no tailless forms there, and no tailless models.

Interestingly ssp. memnon was introduced to Ceram and Buru very many years ago (probably on Citrus plants with migrant Javanese), and both tailed and tailless forms still occur there. Luckily they didn't hybridise with the closely related local species Papilio deiphobus.

Adam.

Thanks for the corrections by Adam. I didn't pay much attention to the genus Atrophaneura and I will learn it carefully in the future. It is interested that I found that many female individuals of ssp. anceus on Sumatra have white triangles on the base of forewings instead of red ones distributed on the other islands，not only tailless ones but also tailed (Of course there are still some red ones on this island).

I have seen a specimen from N. Borneo with very strange phenotype just like a tailless one with tailed pattern on the hindwings (f anura), so what is its model? Might be Troides sp.?

Another question, do you have some specimen of ssp. eos? I've not ever seen this ssp before ^0^

Thanks