Thank you Bill for the comparison photograph.

I zoomed in on the lower specimens forewing "wing pattern" and I can see many points where certain markings, line squiggles, blank cells are all pretty much in the same place except that it is a VERY melanic appearing individual.

It could be that perhaps it's diet as a larvae was on something a bit different for the species or the nutrient contents were richer thus producing this dark one.

Marvelously different for the species.

I imagine that trying to put together a Mona fascicle on these moths (just for the eastern half of the US) could prove to be very daunting for anyone because of variations within species, notable forms, and even possible hybridization of some species.

A tough subject indeed....

Yes, as 58chevy said, it's related to rubicunda. More here too viewtopic.php?p=8763&hilit=rubicunda#p8763

Chien Lee is one of the best nature photographers on the planet. Many of his subjects are insects. He regularly leads expeditions to remote areas of the globe, especially southeast Asia. A friend of mine has traveled with him several times and highly recommends him as a travel guide. He takes care of all accommodations and is very knowledgeable about all the flora & fauna of the regions he frequents. According to my friend, he can spot an insect a mile away that nobody else would notice.

https://photos.chienclee.com/index/G0000DxTz75evl1M

It was Dryocampa kendalli. Looks a lot like D. rubicunda.

Dave Wagner and friends just described a new Anisota from the Texas Hill Country that looks a lot like virginiensis. Apparently it is quite rare, until it has huge outbreaks - then apparently quite abundant - especially the larvae. It was in the latest issue of the Journal of the Lepidopterists' Society.

..., or may it was Dryocampa rubicunda? Heck it's a moth - so I barely pay attention!

John

Here is a closer view/comparison. It was caught in north central Illinois.

wollastoni wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2024 6:24 am
The good practice is to have a guide who will ask before entering a "land" the cost and negotiate it. Usually a pack of cigarettes + few dollars will make the job. If you don't negotiate "before", then they will ask you to pay "to leave the land"... and here the cost can be huge as you are seen as a very rude man that should be punished for his rudeness.

This is virtually universal, including in USA.

Look at it from the landowner's perspective. They work the land, they work it hard. But things are rather consistent.

Then you show up with your butterfly net.

You are bringing nothing to their life, whether in Montana or Ecuador. Your presence can be of zero benefit. In fact, quite the opposite: your presence is likely to be a problem.

First, the common anecdote which I've advised many times: "never trust a white man." Locals think it's odd coming from me, but it's true. They well known that historically white men bring problems, they virtually never improve any situation. They're always up to something. This works in Montana too: what good have urban or suburban people ever brought? Answer is "nothing".

At one roadblock it was quickly explained "no white men allowed past, no exceptions" (I understand the local language.) Despite having a local guide, that was set in stone. The only way we got past after 30 minutes was because we'd brought a third person with a relative in the destination village. On Guadalcanal, several researcher friends who are white, born on Guadalcanal, are not allowed in some remote areas, so have to send Guadalcanal natives. These researchers KNOW they are not permitted there, and know better to push their luck because they are at serious risk of physical injury or death.

Second, your butterfly net. What are you doing here? The worst answer is "I'm looking for endangered butterflies." Oh, what bad could possibly come from your good intent? Well, if you find one and report it, their land could be inundated by (in USA) USFWS, BLM (Bureau of Land Management), etc. and the next thing they know they've lost the grazing rights on 1000 acres. God forbid you find an arrowhead too.

You bring nothing to the table, you're only a problem.

The same in rural/ remote foreign areas. You bring nothing but problems. They already know that butterfly lives on their land, they don't need you to tell them. And they don't need more of your type running around smashing gardens and making noise. Oh dear, you ran out of food, you got hurt. Well, then somebody has to care for you...more of a drain.

Those who precede you have already put a nail in your coffin. Many pretend to be hikers or ecologists or whatever, but actually represent the interests of mining, logging, or other unwanted concerns. Nothing good came of them- what good can come from you. Who are you really?

On that, even collectors cause problems. I arrived at the Solomon Islands Dept of Natural Resources office to get an export permit. Sitting down with the #2 guy, my friend, I said that and his eyes lit afire, and as dark as his skin was I could see the red flush of extreme anger. Two very well known lepidopterists had come into country unannounced, collected, and skipped the country. To say that the DNR staff was angry is an understatement. "NO PERMITS!" took a while to get past, even when I had established interpersonal and professional relationships.

How would you feel if you came home to find that your brother's family was playing volleyball in your back yard and drinking your sodas and beer? It's universal that property ownership, whether personal or communal, is to be respected. So by showing up in Arizona ranch land or the deepest of Amazon, you're breaking a globally universal social norm, if nothing else.

As wollastoni cited, acknowledging land rights is respectful. In many cultures, the simplest, cheapest gift is expected. In Fiji, one brings Kava as a gift for the chief- even though they have PLENTY of Kava. Then, you will sit and drink that Kava with them. In Idaho, you go from farmhouse to farmhouse to find out who owns the land you want to explore, provide a simple gift (perhaps cigarettes, perhaps some 30-30 ammo) and maybe load some cow manure. Whether Fiji or Idaho, AFTER they get some of your time to analyze you, you might be granted access. And if you are, you may get the huge benefit of a ride, a guide, and free dinner.

If you don't take the time to respect the landowners, or if you think it's stupid, you have nobody to blame for being kicked out. There rules may differ slightly between Omaha and the Nile Delta, but at the core they're the same. Respect or pay the price.

Some fearmongering has been presented concerning foreign languages, this warrants some clarification.

Humans are adept at learning foreign languages. It is not for the Mensa, or the linguistic experts. Even the most simple, uneducated, and slow person can learn multiple languages through exposure. Immersion in a language for 30 days is virtual assurance that one will learn to speak a foreign language.

Most remote villagers speak several languages, despite a lack of formal education. I know people who have no high school (ages ~15-18) education and speak five languages. So I have no doubt everyone here can, with exposure, pick up a language quickly.

There are more difficult languages such as Russian, Mandarin (tones), and Lokuru. But in general, there actually isn't that much to learn to express the vast majority of needs: toilet, doctor, police, pharmacy, "where is", "I need". You don't have to be fluent to be understood; the exception might be Mandarin in which you think you're ordering an orange juice yet the server clearly hears "chainsaw." In Mandarin, those fluent in the language use tones, so cannot discern or extrapolate your "chainsaw" into "orange juice", in contrast to, say, a German at a US pub ordering a "bear" or an Australian ordering in "Beeyah."

Yes, in very remote areas the local may not speak one of the common European languages, but this is increasingly rare. Anywhere close to urban centers most will speak English, Spanish, French, or Mandarin. For English speakers in Latin America, you most likely know "el banjo", "mariposa", and "cervesa"; locals understand things like "pharmacy" and "police" because it's readily translatable into Spanish.

Attempting to speak the local (foreign) language can be a door opener. It demonstrates respect and equality, and effort. Yes, 1% of the time you might offend someone, but 80% of the time it's accepted well, and 19% of the time your pathetic attempt will generate laughter, which is one of the greatest ways to start bonding.

Foreign languages may present a challenge, but for the open minded they are not insurmountable.

This comes up constantly.

What should be done by an interested party is to analyze the current import regulations for personal use. The easiest way is to line-out the sections, paragraphs, and sentences that don't apply to personal use (eg. anything to do with commercial, institution, etc.) which leaves less to examine. Then look for caveats that make sections inapplicable (often called "loopholes" by politicians, fear mongers, and their acolytes: loopholes are not real, they do not exists- there is compliance, and non-compliance.)

With that, one should be able to determine the requirements and publish a summary.

I did this 20 years ago with import regulations when I was importing. I carried a printed copy of the laws with me, because enforcement does not know all the laws, they are not trained on the specific parts of the laws (particularly the caveats). I have already done it here for CITES, and I did it just out of interest concerning the export of Chinese CITES II specimens.

Instead of going round and round, a party that is interested in importing should do a bit of homework.

When I typed 'Mortmanga, Madagascar' into the Google Maps search box and clicked search it sent me to Moramanga.

The area ~20km+ west of Moramanga town is actually a well known butterfly locality.

Adam.

The females of mauensis can be very different. The forewing colouring changes from yellow to red at will. There are also specimens with blue and green colouring. I have never observed such a variety of colouration in aurantiaca.

Luehdorf You asked how much NaCn do I place in my traps? In 1969, I began using Ethyl Acetate in the bottom of my automatic-capture light traps placed in an aluminum pan below the screened tray onto which all of the insects entering the trap funnel fell onto. Every night I would place one pint (= 475 Milliliters) in each light trap. I did this for the next 7-8 years every day (365-days every year) I would have to personally do this. We have never stopped collecting since we began in 1969. This pint would totally evaporate before the next night, so I then placed another pint the next day. I did have to purchase EA in 55-gallon drum quantities (= 208 kg). I used a lot of this as a killing agent. After about 8 years, I began using (granular or briquettes) NaCn in all of my automatic capture traps instead of EA. The benefits of using NaCn are many. First, NaCn is the ultimate insect killing agent used and reported by entomologist for centuries. It dispatches most insects withing a few seconds of exposure. Our target insects were lepidoptera and this is a perfect killing agent to use.

Using cyanide in traps that are moved/repositioned daily causes much greater opportunities for something more dangerous to happen. The majority of all my hundreds of insect traps have operated continuously non-stop for the past 42 years hear at my home property at the same locations. But also, I was able to place granular/briquettes into nearly all of my automatic-capture traps e,g, 1/4 pound (=0.1 Kg), for small bucket traps to (0.22 kg) or (.45 kg) depending on the type and size of the traps. This way I only have to add cyanide every 6-8 months to each trap (not every day). NaCn is hygroscopic and attracts H2O and the longer the cyanide is in the traps it get very wet, and its potency becomes less over time. So I have eliminated the huge amount of man-hours involved in placing the killing agent daily. I only go to each trap daily to pick up the high-quality captures.

Here e.g. in this photo of a clearwing (sesiid) moth trap, I have removed the lid and you can see the moth captures sitting on the screen, and you can see the granular NaCn in this photo below the the screen. It is necessary not to allow the insects to come in contact directly with the NaCn. The NaCn in this trap will last 6-8 months without touching it before adding more. The use of NaCn in this manner works by the humidity (H2O) normally occurring in the air slowly releases Hydrogen cyanide gas in the trap.

I want to state clearly that Hydrogen Cyanide will kill you, and is very dangerous. I have handled and used NaCn every day for the past 45 years and so far I am still alive and I have had no serious problems using this deadly chemical. I have not used any type of safety equipment, I just used common sense in handling it. Also here is a basket insert which sits above the cyanide with captures of some clearwing moths.

vabrou wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 5:49 pm Correct, I use rolls of flexible fiberglass window screening, as I have fabricated and used a lot of these traps over the past half century. UV resistance is a must. But even this heavy duty window screening can be chewed up by hornets and bigger wasps. Over 300 of my 464 entomological publications and be freely accessed at this link, including many providing detailed instructions on how to fabricate different entomological equipment yourself: https://independent.academia.edu/VernonAntoineBrouJr

Regardless, the longest my traps operating 24 hours daily year-round and continuous here was 8 years and that was including lots of repairs. After 8 years I fabricated new traps.

As for cyanide, when someone tells you no, ignore them. Think out of the box. I have purchased dozens of 55-gallon and 50 gallon drums of sodium cyanide over the past half century. We use a lot of this because we have operated ~500 insect traps nonstop 24 hours daily 365-366 days/nights for the past 55 years. It is not necessary to buy laboratory grade chemicals, that is a waste of money and harder to obtain. Look for industrial grade, that is much easier to acquire. Your bugs will never know there are a few %% of impurities in what is killing them. The last (4) 50 kg drums of NaCn I purchased came out of Germany.

@vabrou how much sodium cyanide do you use per trap and in which form? Just the powder? And when using ethyl acetate how much would you use per bait trap? Thanks a lot for all the details, I cannot wait to build one here, and I will post my results in a few weeks here in the thread!

Thanks Adam. I was trying to find something similar on google maps, but didn't see this one.

Hi everyone,
Just a bit puzzled over A.pericles females , I'm seeing that lets take as an example, pericles aurantiaca and mauensis ,the females in particular are to me identticle,
There is a shift in males acrossssp but the females are very consistent generally.
Any thoughts ??

A bit more concerning collecting and shipping permits. What is misunderstood about these matters is the the regulations concerning these matters have been hijacked by the employees of the regulatory agencies over the decades to be applied against any persons regardless of being regulated by these regulation or not. The vast majority of all of these collecting and shipping regulations apply only to commercial aspects of these matters. They do not apply to others. To know if they should apply to you, you need to find the initial published regulations and read ad understand them well. This is easier said than done as your government has passed tens of thousands of new regulations every year, year after year after year. I did this a couple of decades back and discovered what I am saying here is true. If you call your government and ask them about these matters, it will result in a situation akin to you calling the Internal Revenue Service (tax collector) and talking to 100 different persons there. The result will be about 100 different answers to those questions. Not one of those IRS agents have any idea what the true answer is to these questions.

A decade or so ago,I had a National Forest Service Ranger insist that I obtain a collecting permit before he would allow me to collect on Nat. For. Service lands. I told him I did not need to obtain a permit to collect insects in the National Forest. I told him I had a copy from the Federal Government office of the National Forest Service that says I do not need a permit. He didn't care what I said. I have to request permission from him to collect. I told him ok, and the very next day contacted the Forest Service Head Office in Washington D.C. and told them the incident and requested they issue a revised letter and review this matter for all Nat. For. lands throughout the country. Two weeks later I received an apology and a new letter updating the regulations across the 50 states of the USA. Bottom line, it was found that this Forest Ranger had made up his own set of regulations without authorization for dispensing permits in order to collect insects in the National Forest. The Head Office said they would straighten out that wayward employee. Since then I never heard from him again, but I have collected in that Nat. For. area numerous dozens of times since then without any permits.

This is the situation which has similarly occurred numerous times concerning collecting and shipping regulations in the USA. Too many experts talking about things they know little to nothing about. The same situations have occurred with the postal service here in the USA. I have shipped/received insects every year since 1964.

Here I am collecting at that National Forest location.

Here is the free access link to the response. https://www.academia.edu/540099/Revisit ... _2011?sm=b

mothman55 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 1:42 pm The one with the yellow marker is an interesting one. Also note that the inner hindwing stripe ends well before the inner margin and is narrower than all the other coccinata, as in a number of other catocala species. I believe there are named "forms" of coccinata with this different inner hindwing stripe. So perhaps this is a form of coccinata that also has melanic forewings. Or perhaps it is another species altogether??

I have a number of coccinata with thin, short hw inner stripes, all from coastal Georgia and north Florida. I think that this is the typical southern form. But all of mine have the usual grey fw.

jh

Correct, I use rolls of flexible fiberglass window screening, as I have fabricated and used a lot of these traps over the past half century. UV resistance is a must. But even this heavy duty window screening can be chewed up by hornets and bigger wasps. Over 300 of my 464 entomological publications and be freely accessed at this link, including many providing detailed instructions on how to fabricate different entomological equipment yourself: https://independent.academia.edu/VernonAntoineBrouJr

Regardless, the longest my traps operating 24 hours daily year-round and continuous here was 8 years and that was including lots of repairs. After 8 years I fabricated new traps.

As for cyanide, when someone tells you no, ignore them. Think out of the box. I have purchased dozens of 55-gallon and 50 gallon drums of sodium cyanide over the past half century. We use a lot of this because we have operated ~500 insect traps nonstop 24 hours daily 365-366 days/nights for the past 55 years. It is not necessary to buy laboratory grade chemicals, that is a waste of money and harder to obtain. Look for industrial grade, that is much easier to acquire. Your bugs will never know there are a few %% of impurities in what is killing them. The last (4) 50 kg drums of NaCn I purchased came out of Germany.

I have watched decades of discussions and posting about these very same matters in this forum and others. Thus far, I have chosen not to participate by giving my true knowledge, because there is an inordinate amount of self proclaimed unknowledgeable experts giving their uninformed meaningless opinions. You don't need a damn thing either in or out of the USA. But, there are some things to address as: your public reputation, is your name already on a list of dishonest people, or obvious things like are you operating a business selling insects, or are you importing bird-wings... But the greatest problems occurs is when you put yourself on these potential watch list by contacting someone in government to ask questions or even more foolish by reporting your shipments. Already the massively expansive government regulators continues to grow by leaps and bounds daily without safe-fails. 99%+ of these shipments are not logged in any database. For what purpose would you do this self-inflicted foolishness? There are instances where these obtrusive regulations are probably helpful, but the majority of these regulations are nothing but massive government over reach by persons attempting to prove their importance and self-worth to the public. These clowns attempting to enforce these unsubstantiated regulations once employed, are there for their lifetimes. In 100% of the cases these regulations were falsely based upon falsely published research by elitist persons who have never done anything meaningful away from a computer. This entire matter is an unregulated enforcement and monetary taxation for the remainder of your lifetimes. These regulations are copied and pasted across the world by others who also are using these to justify their employment.

Want to see extremes, look at India who have passed laws outlawing any and all collecting and research even to dissecting earthworms by surgical medical training universities. Even government forestry researchers are arrested and their collections confiscated by other India's governmental agencies. The most ridiculous thing about India is that each state in India has passed their own individual sets of regulations and laws and in their government have engaged in fistfights and rowdiness involving throwing furniture at each other attempting to discuss some of these matters.

I learned long ago to never provide any usable information to just anyone. Novice collectors fall victim to this thinking they will elevate their lack of stature by telling all they know so it get on the official record. These government people will use your information to pass regulations stopping you from further research and collecting what you may have first newly discovered.

The further answer to these unjust enforcement regulations regardless of country, such enforcement often a consequence of where you live in your respective country. Out in less populated areas, few shipments are seen and bothered with; in big cities a lot more encounters occur.

I know those who have collected and shipped (in and out) of the USA for over 60-70 years, involving millions of insect specimens across the globe, and never once obtained any permit whatsoever, even once for any reasons. Also, if your country is an enemy of the other country involved in these shipments, expect negative results and more problems.

Persons who have asked me for advice about these matters more often listen to the misinformation found on the internet and forums like this one, and who ignored my warnings later write to me, they called anyway despite what I warned them not to do, and have subsequently fallen into the rabbit-hole to government oblivion.

How do I know these things? Well I remember when highest quality insect pins sold here in the USA for $3.00/1000 US. I also remember when some bird-wing butterflies sold here in the US for $2.00/each. I also have personally collected numerous billions of insects here in my state of Louisiana. So I have actually experienced these things I speak of. I have personally shipped in and out of the US more than 700,000 insects. I'll be 75 in two days, so there is a lot of history and experiences behind my opinions. One big negative about going on record and obtaining permits is that these corrupt reprobates whether it be government or personal acquaintances you though were friends, will eventually use your permits to shut down all your future personal entomological activities.

Here in the US we have constitutionally granted free speech to express our personal opinions whether others like it or not. In some countries one can be executed or may disappear for expressing their personal or truthful opinions. Before thinking of deleting opinions given here, one should carefully consider the financial future and ability to continue business and the ramifications of preventing opinions you may personally disagree with from appearing. E.g. I have not called for the removable of decades of false and nonsensical anecdotal opinions about these matters found on this, and similar forums. I have noted when peoples opinions are deleted in these forums, they and others seeing this occurring don't bother returning, because they see that the opinions are false and one-sided.

unrelated jpg for attention
From my 2004 generic revision of the moth genus Baileya in the USA, Citation:
Brou Jr., V.A. 2004. Two new species of Baileya Grote (Nolidae: Risobinae) from the southeastern United States. Jour. Lepid. Soc. 58:94-99.

That was ambitious. Multiple topics about importing have popped up here from time to time. Your purpose doesn't matter, the Gov. wants to
be involved.
I have experience circumventing the process, but it's not recommended, I can only say it's a risk and if you do get your shipment, I wouldn't try it again, you may get into trouble. You as the recipient are solely responsible, not the exporter.