InsectNet forum

livingplanet3 · by livingplanet3 » Mon Nov 20, 2023 6:53 pm

Twotails wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 6:48 pm Hi, Anyone know what this is. Realise image is a bit blurry and hopefully I have attached it to this message....

It's the caterpillar of a geometrid moth, commonly called an "inchworm" -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geometer_moth

https://bugguide.net/node/view/188

These caterpillars usually mimic twigs of the plants they feed on, to conceal themselves from predators such as birds.

Twotails · by Twotails » Mon Nov 20, 2023 6:48 pm

Hi, Anyone know what this is. Realise image is a bit blurry and hopefully I have attached it to this message.

Chuck · by Chuck » Mon Nov 20, 2023 6:42 pm

Cabintom wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 1:57 pm If you consistently see a, say, 1.2 or 1.3% difference between the barcodes of specimens from two populations (or forms, or what-have-you) and there are no barcodes "filling the gap", you likely have two separate species on your hands.

Given that one could well argue that COI is better at differentiation than morphological comparisions it seems this gap is more reliable. Given that, I've read several papers lately that show COI for broad-ranging taxa that are broken into clades (or some such) and so long as it exceeds 1.2% (or pick a number) then Joe Anybody could jump and describe dozens of new species based on the gap alone.

58chevy · by 58chevy » Mon Nov 20, 2023 5:54 pm

More...

58chevy · by 58chevy » Mon Nov 20, 2023 5:51 pm

These are not recent captures, but I thought I'd throw in a few more cerambycids after seeing Mike H's call for more beetles. All are from USA, mostly TX, AZ, FL. If you're interested in IDs, let me know & I'll post them after Thanksgiving.

Cabintom · by Cabintom » Mon Nov 20, 2023 1:57 pm

With COI, I like the concept of "barcode gap". If you consistently see a, say, 1.2 or 1.3% difference between the barcodes of specimens from two populations (or forms, or what-have-you) and there are no barcodes "filling the gap", you likely have two separate species on your hands. Personally, I'd also want to support the barcode hypothesis with concrete morphological and/or biogeographical evidence.

I also like Klee Diagrams, but that may be because I'm not so interested in proposed evolutionary lineages (and as Adam has pointed out, sometimes the different trees conflict with each other) and more interested in evidence supporting the existence of separate species.

Chuck · by Chuck » Mon Nov 20, 2023 12:41 pm

wollastoni wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 10:47 am Trehopr1 < the "strange" Agrias you see on the market are not aberrations or man-made aberration. They are man-made hybrids from the Peruvian Agrias farms.

I highly recommend the new book of Philippe Floquet who illustrates all Agrias natural forms and all know Agrias hybrids : https://marketplace.insectnet.com/item/ ... embre-2023

Interesting. With so many potential crosses, the possibilities are almost endless.

I wonder if it will go the way of freshwater Amazon Anglelfish (Scalare)- so much crossing and thousands of generations later, the standard fish is a sad comparison to the wild fish; oddball morphs have come and gone, some because the resulting crosses produced fish that had too many problems. Now, the real enthusiasts are after what was imported 50 years ago- wild caught fish. I see this too in Papilio ulysses and other flashy species that have been bred on farms now for 30 years: generic, look-alike specimens that don't have the size nor variation of the wild butterflies.

wollastoni · by wollastoni » Mon Nov 20, 2023 10:47 am

Trehopr1 < the "strange" Agrias you see on the market are not aberrations or man-made aberration. They are man-made hybrids from the Peruvian Agrias farms.

I highly recommend the new book of Philippe Floquet who illustrates all Agrias natural forms and all known Agrias hybrids : https://marketplace.insectnet.com/item/ ... embre-2023

Trehopr1 · by Trehopr1 » Sat Nov 18, 2023 10:33 pm

I personally MARVEL at the one-of-a-kind aberrations produced by the very few capable sellers out there. The swallowtails that I have seen are absolutely "out of this world" and REALLY cannot be mistaken for anything natural occurring.

With the lone exception of the genus Agrias most singular species produced of Nymphalidae are also pretty incredible and yet, are readily discernible from anything natural occurring.

All of these "specialty pieces" still tend to sell on the high side of pricing because they are a one-of-a-kind's and only a niche market of collectors out there can afford them.

However, I humbly believe that Agrias aberrations are the one subject group that is truly oversaturated in this regard....
The lines have truly become blurred between what is a hybridization of two species and what has been produced via chemical alteration. One now finds that even amongst some of the standard hybridized stock there are (singular) individuals which will stand out from all the others.

Are these singular one-off variations of a hybridized species (just that) or are a few select pupae pulled and treated chemically so as to produce a small assortment to garner higher pricing ?

It's really become challenging with Agrias to know what it is you're getting with these altered specimens but, under MOST circumstances they are obviously not natural occurring.

So, I don't necessarily see the harm in anyone producing these incredible creatures because I do believe that most of us who are informed and intelligent about this hobby would never mistake 98% of these butterflies as anything from the NATURAL world.

As with any other hobby or passion one must stay informed, be wise, be questioning, and above all else NEVER allow yourself to be gullible about something which just doesn't seem right.

Natural occurring aberrations will always be held in high regard because of what they are and by way of those who collected them. If you make such a unique discovery yourself try to tell some fellow collectors about it and if nothing else at least place a special note of data alongside it or with it to indicate pertinent information.

Chuck · by Chuck » Sat Nov 18, 2023 9:24 pm

Fraud is probably the second oldest profession. It is not going away. And, so long as the offered specimens are not described as natural aberrations the ad is not fraudulent. "Let the buyer beware."

Some pretty amazing aberrations have been made by scientists with gene editing CRISPR. How long until that's available on Amazon for under $100? Then wait to see what happens.

If you must have a collectible which is at risk for fraud, the only things you can do are (1) become an expert or (2) have a reliable source. If it's too cheap to be true, it probably is.

MikeH · by MikeH » Sat Nov 18, 2023 8:47 pm

Molorchus longicollis from Siskiyou Co. CA

Grammoptera molybdica from Siskiyou Co. CA

Pseudastylopsis nebulosus from Siskiyou Co. CA

Toxoleptura vexatrix from Siskiyou Co. CA

MikeH · by MikeH » Sat Nov 18, 2023 8:37 pm

Xestoleptura tibialis from Granite Co. MT

Pogonocherus mixtus from Jefferson Co. CO

Acanthocinus spectabilis from Jefferson Co. CO

MikeH · by MikeH » Sat Nov 18, 2023 8:29 pm

Stenosphenus sobrius from Pima Co. AZ

Dectus tetanus from Pima Co. AZ

Stenelaphus alienus from Pima Co. AZ

Aneflomorpha cazieri from Santa Cruz Co. AZ

Muscidora tumacacorii from Santa Cruz Co. AZ

Dylobolus rotundicollis from Santa Cruz Co. AZ

MikeH · by MikeH » Sat Nov 18, 2023 8:09 pm

Aneflomorpha sp. from Gila Co. AZ

MikeH · by MikeH » Sat Nov 18, 2023 8:04 pm

Some more new Cerambycidae from 2023

Tylosis maculatus from Catron Co. NM

Anoplocurius altus from Gila Co. AZ

Moneilema annulatus from Gila Co. AZ

Aneflomorpha paralinearis from Gila Co. AZ

kevinkk · by kevinkk » Sat Nov 18, 2023 5:06 pm

I've noticed some ebay listings for different aberrations, I wasn't aware they were man made animals. Sounds worthless to me. I have enough
of a hurdle with hybrids.
When money comes into play, all bets are off. Just like the ready made "collectibles".

wollastoni · by wollastoni » Sat Nov 18, 2023 2:38 pm

I see your point. But as soon as they are clearly advertised as "man-made", I can't see how you could stop them. If some collectors are happy to buy them, and sellers happy to raise specimen to produce their aberrations, it is hard to condemn them.
Many aberration collectors feel like you.

It is the same for Agrias collectors now that some rare species are raised and have lost 80% of their value.

mothman55 · by mothman55 » Sat Nov 18, 2023 11:06 am

A couple of eBay sellers have been flooding the market with aberrant specimens created by injecting chemicals (tungstate I believe) into fresh pupa. Although this may seem a harmless method of making money, it waters down the thrill of finding an aberrant in the field. I for one have always kept a sharp eye out for anything that was "different" from the typical, and have a number of "natural aberrations" that I have managed to collect over the years. But I have to say that now that a few people have figured out how to "create" these aberrants in the lab with chemical injection, it has somewhat taken the thrill out of finding these rarities in the field, as you see aberrants advertised every day on eBay. At first I saw that the sellers were getting big bucks for these "fakes", but as they have somewhat flooded the market with more and more of the same, the prices have dropped substantially. And no doubt as more people figure out how to create these in the lab, the market for these will dry up, and the damage will have been done in that aberrants will cease to be of interest as the line between fakes and natural will fade. Who will know whether a spectacular aberrant was created or was the result of an incredible find in the field, I guess only those that had the thrill of finding one themselves.

EdTomologist · by EdTomologist » Fri Nov 17, 2023 6:21 pm

Hi! I visited both Osaka and Kyoto and was able to do some good collecting. I’ve also been able to connect with some local collectors who aided me in finding the best places to collect.

You can also check my blog post about my collecting trip in Japan!
https://edtomology.wixsite.com/edtomol ... s-in-japan

I’m happy to answer any questions. Email: edtomology@gmail.com

daveuk · by daveuk » Fri Nov 17, 2023 5:58 pm

I won't use this seller again. Have bought quite a few specimens from him from the website & ebay. The quality was mixed. Some good & some very bad. My last parcel had three bad & one specimen missing. I only got a full refund by agreeing to remove negative feedback on ebay. At first he also was not going to pay me for postage for returning damaged specimens. He only did so when I took down the ebay negative feedback.

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