InsectNet forum

Leonard187 · by Leonard187 » Mon Dec 04, 2023 1:47 pm

Chuck wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2023 12:44 pm
Adam is always very helpful.

I'd not worry too much about misID, that happens.

I can't tell you the number of times some sub-project in my research has eaten many hours of work, and then I discover that the work had already been done, the paper is on my computer, and I'd simply forgotten that I'd read it.

Thanks, and you are so kind. I found that my memory has been a bit weak recently

.

adamcotton · by adamcotton » Mon Dec 04, 2023 1:37 pm

It absolutely depends on the formatting requirements of the journal you will publish in.

Adam.

Chuck · by Chuck » Mon Dec 04, 2023 12:48 pm

Hi guys,

I need to cite some publications; the easy way is to go to one of the scientific paper access sites and use their citation. But these seem inconsistent. For example:

Scriber, J. Mark 1990. "Interaction of Introgression From Papilio Glaucus Canadensis and Diapause in Producing "Spring Form" Eastern Tiger Swallowtail Butterflies, P. Glaucus (Lepidoptera: Palilionidae),"The Great Lakes Entomologist, vol 23 (3)

Schmidt, Christian. (2019). “More on Ontario Tiger Swallowtails.” Toronto Entomologists’ Association Season Summary, Ontario Lepidoptera 2019.
Scriber JM. Assessing ecological and physiological costs of melanism in North American Papilio glaucus females: two decades of dark morph frequency declines. Insect Sci. 2020 Jun;27(3):583-612. doi: 10.1111/1744-7917.12653. Epub 2019 Jan 7. PMID: 30456932; PMCID: PMC7277061.

Scriber JM. Assessing ecological and physiological costs of melanism in North American Papilio glaucus females: two decades of dark morph frequency declines. Insect Sci. 2020 Jun;27(3):583-612. doi: 10.1111/1744-7917.12653. Epub 2019 Jan 7. PMID: 30456932; PMCID: PMC7277061.

Any suggestions?

Chuck · by Chuck » Mon Dec 04, 2023 12:44 pm

Leonard187 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2023 6:52 am
Thanks for your reply and I feel sorry for my carelessness because this information could be found in the new papilio paper you posted previously >0<
I just intuitively treated it as group polytes because of their similar appearance.

Adam is always very helpful.

I'd not worry too much about misID, that happens.

I can't tell you the number of times some sub-project in my research has eaten many hours of work, and then I discover that the work had already been done, the paper is on my computer, and I'd simply forgotten that I'd read it.

Leonard187 · by Leonard187 » Mon Dec 04, 2023 6:52 am

adamcotton wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 9:02 am Papilio hipponous is a separate species from the Philippines, not directly related to P. polytes but in the fuscus-group. Another species related to P. hipponous is P. prexaspes from the Malay Peninsula, Borneo and Indochina, with a subspecies in Hainan - bowringi. This subspecies is rather hard to obtain, as it lives only in the lowlands, and generally not in places people go to look for butterflies. It also looks superficially very like P. polytes, but note the lack of white spots along the forewing margin of all species in the fuscus-group.

Adam.

Thanks for your reply and I feel sorry for my carelessness because this information could be found in the new papilio paper you posted previously >0<
I just intuitively treated it as group polytes because of their similar appearance.

kevinkk · by kevinkk » Mon Dec 04, 2023 12:53 am

While my whining got some attention, and an email...little has changed. If, and it's a big one, the situation becomes resolved, I will make a
retraction, unbelievably, this situation and my handling of it has cost me 2 relationships with other members of InsectNet. Find out who your friends are.

kevinkk · by kevinkk » Mon Dec 04, 2023 12:44 am

It was only money. Thanks for being there.

grmanners · by grmanners » Sun Dec 03, 2023 5:32 pm

Please clarify. These are your specimens? Your labels? You are already confident in their ID? Otherwise, why label before posting?

adamcotton · by adamcotton » Sun Dec 03, 2023 9:02 am

Papilio hipponous is a separate species from the Philippines, not directly related to P. polytes but in the fuscus-group. Another species related to P. hipponous is P. prexaspes from the Malay Peninsula, Borneo and Indochina, with a subspecies in Hainan - bowringi. This subspecies is rather hard to obtain, as it lives only in the lowlands, and generally not in places people go to look for butterflies. It also looks superficially very like P. polytes, but note the lack of white spots along the forewing margin of all species in the fuscus-group.

Adam.

Leonard187 · by Leonard187 » Sun Dec 03, 2023 5:48 am

Recently I saw a specimen named Papilio hipponous which is much similar as P. polytes. However I cannot find it as a subspecies from above list. May
I know whether it is just a synonym of some sp. or ssp.?

alandmor · by alandmor » Sat Dec 02, 2023 7:36 pm

I just wanted to mention a possible alternative to the traditional No Pest Strips mentioned here. Hercon Vaportape II has the same active ingredient (Dichlorvos,10% vs. 18.6%) but in a more user-friendly, 1" x 4" thin strip and easier to cut. Vaportape II is intended to use as a fumigant in outdoor insect traps and is available from any place that sells insect pest management or insect monitoring supplies such as Great Lakes IPM, https://www.greatlakesipm.com/. The label says to replace after 12 weeks or when effectiveness diminishes. I'd imagine they'd last longer in an enclosed drawer. I have not used either product in insect drawers for pest control so can't vouch for their effectiveness or advisability of doing so since neither product are labelled for such use.

Image courtesy of Julieta Brambila, USDA APHIS PPQ, Bugwood.org

: 5432077-PPT.jpg (66.28 KiB) Viewed 268 times

Cabintom · by Cabintom » Sat Dec 02, 2023 12:03 pm

I believe that this philosophy can also apply to habitat (in addition to weather or time of day). Most of my most exciting records here in DRC were captured in degraded habitats. I think many collectors who come to the tropics aim to do their collecting in pristine habitats (and there's certainly logic to this) and naturally pass-by "less optimal" locations.

Back in the day, when you you could safely camp in the forest and travel around relatively freely, lots collectors would visit Mt. Hoyo, here in Ituri. A common staging point was Nyankunde, which had an airstrip, hospital and a significant ex-pat community given the size of the village. Nyankunde is not all that biogeographically interesting and so it seems very few bothered to do any collecting in the area.
I've collected the holotype of Neptis morosopsis and discovered a colony of Euchrysops kabrosae at the top of the hill directly behind the hospital.

wollastoni · by wollastoni » Sat Dec 02, 2023 11:33 am

It seems we are back.

wollastoni · by wollastoni » Fri Dec 01, 2023 7:32 pm

Grmpfff the problem seems worst than thought by my tech team... and I am facing a TOTAL non-professionalism from Ilance (the Canadian company who created the marketplace software)... so it will take more time... I keep you all informed.

wollastoni · by wollastoni » Fri Dec 01, 2023 6:59 pm

You can indeed hit the "Donate" button below, no differences.

Thank you !!!

adamcotton · by adamcotton » Fri Dec 01, 2023 6:20 pm

COI does not really give a reliable indication of species status, only a suggestion of probability. On the other hand a combination of various mitochondrial genes and importantly also a number of nuclear genes gives a much better indication of specificity ... but even then results can be unreliable in some cases.

Adam.

PS. I agree with John's comment just above. DNA characters are just that ... another category of characters. They should be taken into consideration alongside all other 'traditional' characters.

Chuck · by Chuck » Fri Dec 01, 2023 3:50 pm

(John) that makes me wonder what the pros have been doing for two centuries, arguing about whether something is a species or subspecies.

While CO1 gives some insight- and clears up some of these issues, I'd hope there was SOME standard being set...or at least a baseline guideline.

I see a lot of stuff in BOLD BINs that are all roughly equal off the same branch, and presumably then all manner of taxa(?) could be named as species.

Chuck · by Chuck » Fri Dec 01, 2023 3:17 pm

Oh shoot! I know I got the email while travelling but somehow it went off to spam and disappeared. Can you resend the link to donate? Or should I just hit the yellow "Donate" button below? Does it make any difference?

jhyatt · by jhyatt » Fri Dec 01, 2023 3:14 pm

Chuck wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2023 7:50 pm Thanks Adam.

"Smaller difference in COI". Noting the other factors- range, flight period, etc. how the heck then would one determine Sp vs SSP considering COI?

If we use 2% as a safe range for species (noting that many are now less than that), what might be the difference for a ssp? Must be less than 1/3 of 1%, considering glaucus and appalachiensis.

I expect the answer is "it depends" and "the other factors" but then still....we can argue morphology all day, argue about distant populations, etc...even combining all the factors, are there ANY guidelines for Sp vs SSP now?

To me, DNA data is just another character to use in making what is fundamentally a subjective decision. The DNA % difference is neither stronger nor weaker evidence of speciation than morphology and biology. Species are biological facts, but the rest of classification, both higher and lower levels, is a human construct. At least, that's the way I look at the situation....

jh

wollastoni · by wollastoni » Fri Dec 01, 2023 11:56 am

Yes, we had to buy a larger server due to too many pictures uploaded by sellers.
We should be back today or tomorrow.

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