InsectNet forum

boghaunter1 · by boghaunter1 » Thu Feb 20, 2025 8:53 pm

Thoughts?, Opinions?

John K.

lepman1256 · by lepman1256 » Thu Feb 20, 2025 2:12 am

lepman1256 wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2025 3:23 pm USFW does give you hoops to jump through, but they are spelled out in your application for a import/export permit. Before a shipment hits the U.S. you need to notify the courier (FedEx or DHL) of its arrival. send them picks of documents such as declaration form, waybill number, box pic, health certificate, invoice, and possible others. Most inspections get done at or near their hubs. If you list the wrong one, a USFW representative will get back to you to change it on your Edoc (declaration form) and resubmit. I think what might slow down the clearing of a shipment is when the exact species is not listed on their dropdown list, so you have to go with a (genus name ?). Makes the officer have to check out the species as per your provided invoice. Bonding is done, with a small fee added to your custom fees. If all is done correctly, most shipments clear within 3-4 days.

Your Edoc has a link to upload documents in a PDF format . It has to be combined, the sent. I sometimes have to work with google to find a common name, or genus name, or sometimes just a name like moth or swallowtail. what can get things quicker to you is to pay the yearly fee for port exception or exemption where any port that it enters in can be an inspection point.

Chuck · by Chuck » Thu Feb 20, 2025 1:41 am

Screen shots of said input problems would help.

The answers from members may be delayed because not everyone is here every day, or not coming because they no longer have a license, or don’t care for the attitude.

What did the N.Y. office say about broker requirements?

Lep importing is a far cry from what it was 25 years ago. To put it in perspective, there are probably more licensed machine gun importers than licensed Lep importers. And both are dying breeds.

And the importers you buy from probably aren’t interested in helping you cut them out of the picture.

Borearctia · by Borearctia » Thu Feb 20, 2025 1:29 am

I have knowledge of only 3 specimens with this type of malformation
An example can be found here:
https://lepiforum.org/wiki/page/Laothoe ... /image/2/1
The text notes that the specimen was able to fly.

Andreas

kevinkk · by kevinkk » Wed Feb 19, 2025 10:23 pm

x106x wrote: Tue Feb 18, 2025 3:12 am I'm an artist, not a reseller, but being able to import the popular bugs I use frequently would allow me to keep my prices reasonable (and we all need *something* reasonably priced right about now...amirite?) Any commissions or one offs I just purchase from US resellers.

You want special treatment. That's what I am reading. I am deserving of special treatment as well, I am disabled, I deserve to be treated differently, I am a victim.
That synopsis is the reason I responded to the post, nothing else, I've read all the previous similar posts for the last 5 years or more.

adamcotton · by adamcotton » Wed Feb 19, 2025 10:21 pm

Jen,

I get why you feel upset at some of the responses, but I can say that Chuck for one has 'been there, done that, got the t-shirt' and then given up because importing was too much hassle.

Sorry I cannot advise, not being an American and half way round the World.

Adam.

adamcotton · by adamcotton » Wed Feb 19, 2025 10:15 pm

Very strange, the pupa must have had an extra wing case. I have never seen anything like that.

Adam.

x106x · by x106x » Wed Feb 19, 2025 9:29 pm

Meh, I'm too old to coddle people who aren't my children. I'm generally nice, but I'm not going to get on my knees and beg for help from people who aren't going to give it. I'm from back in the day when people offered to mentor newbies, and I in turn, mentored when I was as educated and proficient as possible in my chosen hobby/business. Obviously those hobbies/businesses were NOT importing bugs!

I understand and expect bureaucracy and inconsistent service (at best) or absolutely awful service (at worst) from any government agency. It's not my first rodeo in that aspect. In one my previous businesses I had to deal with the DMV almost daily, and another, the USDA yearly. My current day job has to work with the DEA. Rules change depending on who you're speaking with and how they're feeling that day. I've seen a form sent back because *there wasn't enough space between the street name and number* (there was- it was perfectly legible). You can ask 4 people the same question (that has one correct answer) and get 4 different answers on how to do it, and each one thinks their answer is correct and won't do it any other way, even if shown the correct way according to whatever manual.

I guess my point is that people do it all the time, and it is possible, even if it's a huge pita. So if someone wants to take a shot at it and other people know the ins and outs, some direction would be greatly appreciated. Although honestly, with tariffs and so many agencies getting slashed, it all may be a moot point before too long.

In some humility,
Jen

Chuck · by Chuck » Wed Feb 19, 2025 8:38 pm

x106x wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2025 8:30 pm That's great for you, go collect in your backyard. That's not at all what this post is about.

I see that between the conspiracy theories, opinions that aren't helpful, the smug, I know it all but figure it out yourself, holier-than-thou attitudes,

New people looking for help might get better responses with a bit of humility.

Most if not all here quit their licenses thanks to USFWS inconsistent “service” and selectively singled out for inspection and harassment BECAUSE they were licensed.

x106x · by x106x » Wed Feb 19, 2025 8:30 pm

That's great for you, go collect in your backyard. That's not at all what this post is about.

I see that between the conspiracy theories, opinions that aren't helpful, the smug, I know it all but figure it out yourself, holier-than-thou attitudes, this forum is like every other forum/hobby/business online. Yay for the internet- where normally okay people get in front of a keyboard and turn into d*cks. This is not directed at anyone specific- but if you think it might be about you, it probably is.

Thank you to the people who actually are helpful. I appreciate it.

boghaunter1 · by boghaunter1 » Wed Feb 19, 2025 7:43 pm

Hello all,

Just stumbled across this interesting B. & W. photo (on Ebay, photo #8 in listing) of a female Cecropia moth (dates from 1904) with 5 wings included in an old 1913 entomology text. Anyone know of or have any experience with this type of an obviously very rare aberration?... just curious!

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=22 ... m570.l1313

: Aberrant Cecropia moth with 5 wings... 1913 book.jpg (274.83 KiB) Viewed 324 times

John K.

adamcotton · by adamcotton » Wed Feb 19, 2025 8:48 am

Chuck,

Thanks for pointing out this issue. I will pass it on to the geneticists so they are aware of it.

Adam.

Chuck · by Chuck » Wed Feb 19, 2025 1:35 am

Not to get too far off topic, Kunte does not say that, in fact the opposite, repeatedly. Such as “ Instead, our extensive dataset reveals that glaucus and canadensis mtDNA haplotypes are exclusively species-specific, and that of appalachiensis is like glaucus”

Glaucus is AAA6909

Canadensis is ACE3135

I’m at a loss how the authors came up with that statement; it’s not from Kunte and other sources they cited also are clear that this isn’t correct.

Anyway, I hope their work on the machaon group is better. Enough though. Carry on!

Artem · by Artem » Wed Feb 19, 2025 12:13 am

Hey everyone, apologies for not introducing myself here - I only just realised this existed

My name is Artem, I'm based in Melbourne, Australia. I run a business selling framed and dry specimens amongst some other related items (resin specimens, equipment etc).

On the collecting/personal side I'm most interested in Saturniidae. I'm also interested in Danaus species, Eupholus and other showy/interesting weevils, and Papilionidae. Through my business I'm always discovering new species/families that I inevitably fall in love with.

I'm slowly working on a book library to broaden my knowledge, my latest additions are The Genera: Eupholus and The African Jewel Beetles

I really value this forum as there are not many places to learn about entomology in Australia given we have a lack of fairs and expos. I'm not a huge poster, but I often read topics and am amazed with the breadth of knowledge of forum members.

adamcotton · by adamcotton » Tue Feb 18, 2025 6:16 pm

Chuck wrote: Tue Feb 18, 2025 1:48 pm “ Finally, P. canadensis, P. glaucus, and P. appalachiensis have identical barcodes (BOLD:AAA6909)”

Note that this is citing Kunte et al. (2011).

I agree this is questionable, and it points towards the progress made in studying the glaucus group since 2011, as well as the limitations of COI and of mt-DNA as a whole. It is quite likely that one or more of these are misidentified, in the light of recent publications. My guess would be the middle one. Personally, I encourage my collaborators not to use older (often difficult to confirm ID) sequences from online sources unless the sample ID can be completely confirmed.

Adam.

kevinkk · by kevinkk » Tue Feb 18, 2025 4:55 pm

Every time I read these posts, I am reminded why I don't bother. I'd like some beetle species, but I don't think it's worth the trouble, but that's my opinion. The issues are why things are expensive, and it doesn't matter if you're eating the dead bugs, what you're doing with them doesn't matter, and
from what I have seen, the market is flooded with insect items of all kinds, if you want cheap bugs, catch them yourself. (In your back yard, because
it's expensive out in the field.) I have no more sympathy for a reseller, an artist, or a fellow collector, there are no extenuating circumstances.
Go to the trouble of importing and mucking it up with the feds, charge what you want.

Chuck · by Chuck » Tue Feb 18, 2025 1:48 pm

“ Finally, P. canadensis, P. glaucus, and P. appalachiensis have identical barcodes (BOLD:AAA6909)”

I’m on my phone without my data, but I question this. The BOLD number does not look correct for canadensis. Surely, the 5’ COI for canadensis and glaucus are not identical. I’ll have to investigate the discrepancy unless someone else is so inclined.

adamcotton · by adamcotton » Tue Feb 18, 2025 12:55 pm

Importantly, this paper shows that the NW African taxon mauretanica Verity, 1905 belongs to Papilio saharae Oberthür, 1879, and Papilio machaon Linnaeus, 1758 does not occur in NW Africa.

Also the taxon neosaharae Tarrier, 2015 is genetically identical to Papilio saharae saharae and as a result is synonymised.

Adam.

adamcotton · by adamcotton » Tue Feb 18, 2025 12:47 pm

Online version just published:

Louis-F. Cassar, Benoit Nabholz, Eliette L. Reboud, Emmanuelle Chevalier, Bérénice J. Lafon, Adam M. Cotton, Fabien L. Condamine 2025. Whole-genome data shed light on speciation and within-species differentiation of the Papilio machaon complex around the Mediterranean Basin. Systematic entomology, DOI: 10.1111/syen.12675, 1-21.

Open access from https://resjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley ... syen.12675

Abstract
Within swallowtail butterflies, the type species Papilio machaon Linnaeus has fostered many studies leading to a complex taxonomy. With >40 subspecies formally recognized in the Palaearctic and recently simplified to 14 subspecies, there is still a need to address the taxonomic delineation within this complex. A previous phylogenomic analysis including Holarctic subspecies has revealed that Palaearctic P. machaon formed several monophyletic groups, leading to treat P. saharae Oberthür as a subspecies and the Nearctic P. machaon as a separate species (P. bairdii Edwards). Here, we aim at testing the taxonomic boundaries and relationships in the Western Palaearctic using whole-genome data of taxa from the Mediterranean region, which include first draft genomes of P. hospiton Géné (41× coverage depth) and P. saharae (51× coverage depth). We refined the species boundary of P. machaon and confirmed the species status of P. saharae. We assessed subspecies limits of Mediterranean P. machaon and P. saharae through Bayesian multi-species coalescent inferences and population genomic analyses, indicating that a taxonomic simplification is needed, with the exclusion of P. machaon from North Africa (P. saharae mauretanica Verity, comb. nov.) and the synonymy of subspecies (P. saharae neosaharae Tarrier, syn. nov.). We revealed heterogeneous levels of heterozygosity between island and continental lineages that warrant further taxonomic actions. We also found evidence of low gene flow between Corsican P. machaon and P. hospiton, endemic to Corsica (and Sardinia). We discuss how the speciation and phylogeographic patterns are in line with past climatic and geological changes of the Mediterranean Basin.

JVCalhoun · by JVCalhoun » Tue Feb 18, 2025 4:17 am

Another excellent example of the artistic license applied to old, hand-colored illustrations is the amount of variation in Plate 23 of Drury (1773) (below). The original drawing by Moses Harris is at upper left (Fig. 9). This plate accompanied the original description of Papilio rhipheus (=Chrysiridia rhipheus) when this moth was thought to be a butterfly. The ventral figure was probably based on a sketch of a worn specimen which lacked the lower portions of its hindwings. The inaccurate dorsal figure may have been based on a written description, or it was simply extrapolated from the ventral sketch.

The coloration of the dorsal hindwings of the copy shown in Fig. 12 really deviates from the others, and was clearly based on the ventral coloration. Strangely enough, that copy of the plate was possibly colored by the original artist, Moses Harris, who likely colored the copy in Fig. 10. There is very little consistency between copies.
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... _1770-1782

John

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