These taxa likely diverged relatively recently and are still in the process of speciation, making it very difficult to segregate them. Unfortunately, COI analysis is often insufficient. Genomic profiles are more thorough, but expensive, and there are few reputable labs capable of conducting and analyzing such tests. I hope this changes as improved methods emerge.

kevinkk wrote: Thu Mar 06, 2025 5:41 pm

Chuck wrote: Wed Mar 05, 2025 5:51 pm That's correct...still, these cabinets are over 2 meters tall, steel, and a real challenge to get up stairs and around corners. I'd trade a couple pair of Ornithoptera (with certificates) to have someone take them away.

Couldn't help but be reminded of an instance at a motel I did maimtenance work at. A murder suspect was holed up in a room, the police used
munitions to blast the place to smithereens. The police took the suspect and left, they do not repair your house.
Hopefully the authorithies left Charles a house, rather than dismantle it.

We did a fair amount of wall banging getting these cabinets up the stairs and around the corner. My wife just painted that hallway, I'm afraid of what's going to happen to ME when we get those things out.

Now about "dismantle" yes, that's true- they fix nothing. And of course I have a story about that.

We were about 22 years old and decided to make the 2 hour run to Canada to go collecting for a few hours. My buddy was driving his hopped up 1974 Camaro. At the border they asked what we'd be doing in Canada, and my buddy said "sightseeing" so we got the pink slip to pull over for inspection.

Got out, popped the trunk and doors. A few Canadian border cops come over and start poking around. One pulls out the killing container- a small tupperware with rubbing alcohol, cracks the corner, and starts pulling it up toward his nose. I said "I wouldn't do that if I were you" well he did, his eyes rolled back, and over he went. Now we had LOTS of cops around us. My buddy did remind them that the guy was warned, but it didn't seem to matter.

So yes, when done, the contents of the Camaro- our collecting stuff, spare tire, carpets, anything that could possibly come out was left on the ground for us to put back in place. Which we did, and continued.

That of course couldn't be the end. They later had a car find us and tail us down the country roads. My buddy demonstrated that no Canadian cop car was going to keep up with his Camaro, and we headed for the safety of the border.

Chuck wrote: Wed Mar 05, 2025 5:51 pm That's correct...still, these cabinets are over 2 meters tall, steel, and a real challenge to get up stairs and around corners. I'd trade a couple pair of Ornithoptera (with certificates) to have someone take them away.

Couldn't help but be reminded of an instance at a motel I did maimtenance work at. A murder suspect was holed up in a room, the police used
munitions to blast the place to smithereens. The police took the suspect and left, they do not repair your house.
Hopefully the authorithies left Charles a house, rather than dismantle it.

John, don't be sorry some interesting things have popped up which muddy the water even more. It's very interesting, and something to keep on my radar.

Handheld COI analysis machines already exist, but they're $4000. Maybe in ten years we will be able to buy pocket sized full-DNA analysis machines for $50 at Walmart. That would make life a lot simpler.

I suspect the eastern Tiger taxonomy is going to look a lot like European humans but more complex. There are more Papilio in my county than there were combined H neanderthal and H sapiens combined, so mobility and quantity points to more complexity. We could find oddball "MST"-like races in odd places, like the Basque. And of course various tribes that have great mobility, and (as with both Europeans and Tigers) range changes due to a variety of factors. And all this plus hybridization. "I'm French!" means nothing more than "I'm a citizen of France"; taxonomically it doesn't mean much anymore, if it ever did. There may be more pure Tigers of sorts, like Tyroleans and Hugonauts, but they too may be just less mixed.

I was afraid that would happen. I referred one to you on iNat from the Ithaca area, sorry about that. This always happens when something new is described, as people attempt to get a "feel" for the species. In this case, it will be tough, but the observation/collection date should help quite a bit. I've looked at the records from Maine, but many photos are poor and don't show enough detail. The date is most helpful, and the fact that "true" glaucus is extremely rare there certainly helps. Anything fresh in late June and July in the southern half of the state is almost surely solstitius. Things get more complicated after that, as stray glaucus and bizarre hybrids can turn up. Farther north, canadensis can still be around into August, though they are extremely worn females. I caught such a female in central Maine on 20 August 2020, which is consistent with canadensis. It was a surprising find.

I'm being inundated with "identify this!" requests. There are some interesting groups of Tigers out there for sure; of course, some of the images are virtually useless.

It just shows how little we know about Tiger Swallowtails. I hope it motivates people to start investigating and keeping records (oh, and sharing them.)

A rare beauty indeed

Another rare butterfly is Delias brandti. This female was caught by an intrepid collector in the Schleinitz Mountains of north-central part of New Ireland.

I have to agree with Tennent. Ornitho are big common lowland species… easy to breed… boring.

adamcotton wrote: Wed Mar 05, 2025 1:42 pm I think Chuck's comment about buying an Ornithoptera on eBay and the USFWS coming to seize his cabinets was a 'tongue-in-cheek' sort of joke about getting rid of his cabinets before moving to Florida.

Adam.

That's correct...still, these cabinets are over 2 meters tall, steel, and a real challenge to get up stairs and around corners. I'd trade a couple pair of Ornithoptera (with certificates) to have someone take them away.

Before someone asks- Ianni used to issue a certificate w/ Ornithoptera that says they were legally imported. I did likewise when I sold Ornithoptera, with the exception that mine also had the import inspection number on them. They're beautiful, but big and eat up space, and I don't want to move them to FL.

I blame Tennent, who told me Ornithoptera were (I forgot, either "stupid" or "rubbish", probably the latter) and common. He suggested Lycaenidae. While I did not go that route, he forever ruined Ornithoptera for me.

I think Chuck's comment about buying an Ornithoptera on eBay and the USFWS coming to seize his cabinets was a 'tongue-in-cheek' sort of joke about getting rid of his cabinets before moving to Florida.

Adam.

You can buy them with CITES on eBay. Just select the serious sellers.

The print version of this paper has been published. Here is the citation pf the print version:

Reboud, E.L., Nabholz, B., Chevalier, E., Lafon, B.J., Tilak, M., Mielke, C.G.C. et al. (2025) Clarifying the phylogeny and systematics of the recalcitrant tribe Leptocircini (Lepidoptera: Papilionidae) with whole-genome data. Systematic Entomology, 50(2), 387–414.
Available from: https://doi.org/10.1111/syen.12661

https://apnews.com/article/rare-birdwin ... fedb86e75e

Seems Mr Limmer plead guilty at the time this thread was last active. Part of the plea bargain was the loss of his “5,000” specimen collection. I find it hard to believe he had so few specimens.

I do wonder if USFWS takes cabinets too. Those were brutal to get in the house and upstairs. I hate to ask the team at Cornell to move them. Do you think if I bought an Ornithoptera on eBay, USFWS would come and seize my cabinets?

Yes, Chuck, I think that would be a worthy study, that's for sure. But I personally don't want to wade into those tall weeds. I have some other projects in the pipeline, which will keep me busy for the foreseeable future.

I was also wondering about "HNF!"

adamcotton wrote: Tue Mar 04, 2025 9:14 am Sorry for my ignorance, but where is 'HNF'?

Adam.

My apologies. Hoosier National Forest, in the state Indiana. I’ll try to not do that again.

Sorry for my ignorance, but where is 'HNF'?

Adam.

@john it would be interesting to make a list of suspect taxa. I’ve meant to go through Clark and Clark and start there, some has been debunked, but some have never been mentioned again.

Pavulaans recent paper.

My apparent different flights

There’s a population of summer wide-abdominal stripe in HNF, there’s an odd group in coastal Texas.

Whether taxa, races, or populations, there’s a bunch of them that might be interesting to investigate

wollastoni wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2025 1:56 pm some have a large distribution area but are really hard to find (Delias agoranis) and so on.

Yutaka Inayoshi told me why Delias agoranis is so rare. Firstly it flies really fast like an Appias, not like other Delias, either above the trees or between the branches high up. It almost never comes near the ground and doesn't puddle.

Adam.