InsectNet forum

livingplanet3 · by livingplanet3 » Tue Mar 11, 2025 6:47 pm

Some additional photos that I took of the FWBG butterfly exhibit, in previous years (part 1) -

kevinkk · by kevinkk » Tue Mar 11, 2025 6:35 pm

Thanks for the thread. Ever go somewhere and wonder if it's a waste a time because you have more at home than there is at the store?
Things do change, and they're changing faster as each year goes by.
That is an impressive bookcase JV, and these things go unappreciated too often, no way is all that ever going to be in a database.

JVCalhoun · by JVCalhoun » Tue Mar 11, 2025 3:52 pm

Here are a few additional books in my library that are signed.

Sadly, Paul Opler, whom I knew quite well, passed away in 2023.

Brownie and I corresponded a number of times over the years. He passed in 1993.

The signature from J. W. Tilden is from his Butterflies of the San Francisco Bay Region (1965). His wife, Hazel, wrote that he signed it while recovering from a blood infection in the coronary care unit at Stanford Hospital. It gave him a much-needed "ego boost" to receive my request. He passed four years later.

Chuck · by Chuck » Tue Mar 11, 2025 3:48 pm

Yeah, the younger generation has lost interest in books. And coins, and stamps. And mom's glassware and silver...and of that china cabinet, Goodwill won't even take them.

Nice books John, thanks for sharing. You are indeed holding history in your hand.

JVCalhoun · by JVCalhoun » Tue Mar 11, 2025 3:30 pm

Chuck wrote: Tue Mar 11, 2025 12:20 pm I've watched multi-million dollar collections parted out; while that's the seed for younger collector's it's a shame that such an aggregation isn't kept together.

Yes, old book collections are sometimes passed down, but that tradition is all but gone in this country. Today, it's pretty much limited to European estates that stay within families. My children (now in their 30s and 40s) have no interest whatsoever in my books.

Thanks so much for asking if I needed any of the books in your photos. I do have them (in some cases, multiple copies), with the exception of a couple of the foreign works.

Over the years, I have tried to get signed copies when possible. When I was in college, I started sending copies to authors for their signatures, and they were always happy to accommodate my requests (when I sent return postage). Although they are not valuable books, my signed copies of Klots (1951) and Mitchell and Zim (1964) are among my most treasured (see below). I got signatures at meetings etc, all from folks who are now long passed. I have also managed to acquire old books that are signed, such as the second edition of Holland's Butterfly Book (1931), in which his shaky inscription is one of the last before his death two months later (see below).

It's too bad that many younger people don't feel the same way about old books. They just pull them up on Internet Archive or Biodiversity Heritage Library. It's just not the same as holding the original in your hands. Signed books were actually held by the authors. You just can't replicate that connection electronically.

Chuck · by Chuck » Tue Mar 11, 2025 3:16 pm

To go into more detail on DNA coding-

I privately covered the cost to do COI 5' for 9 specimens, which was $180. I had a retired Carnegie volunteer coordinate it; I sent legs in vials, she did her thing and sent it off for analysis.

Recently, she advised that she has a source to do 100 specimens for $1200. That's $12 each.

But that's only part of it.

Jhyatt and Jshuey will remember the Society KY Lep meeting at University of KY where I dropped off some 40+ specimens. These sit in the freezer at UK since 2023 because there is no funding. They can't just "do them" it has to be part of a funded project. The estimated cost was $7500 (surely for COI 5', but probably included SNPs and more as well)...but, all institutions also throw a surcharge on grants, so to satisfy UK I'd have had to pony up not $7500 but $10,000.

So the timeframe depends on not just how long it really takes, but in reality, when and where it can be fit in, and who's willing to pay the bill.

adamcotton · by adamcotton » Tue Mar 11, 2025 1:47 pm

mothman27 wrote: Mon Mar 10, 2025 2:13 pm I'm curious about the DNA coding. How much of the specimen is used and what is the turnaround time?

I noticed this question wasn't answered so I thought I would send a quick 'vague' reply.

Generally, only a few legs are needed for analysis, but any body tissue can be used, so for example if an abdomen is removed for genitalia preparation the part above the genitalia can be sent for DNA analysis so it isn't wasted.

As for the time it takes, that really depends on the type of analysis, but generally it doesn't take very long (a few weeks) for a simple barcode (COI) sample, maybe even faster now, but more complex analysis such as whole genome etc can take at least several months for all the stages of the analysis to be completed.

Adam.

Chuck · by Chuck » Tue Mar 11, 2025 12:20 pm

Wow John, that is impressive.

As I've grown older, the previous generation is aging out (and dying). Many of them were obsessive collectors (of not just bugs, or books, but whatever their fancy was) who built collections that exceeded the scope of most or all museums, and could not be replicated today. I've watched multi-million dollar collections parted out; while that's the seed for younger collector's it's a shame that such an aggregation isn't kept together.

I often thought it horrible that the British rich landowners would pass everything to the oldest son. But it was explained to me that that is the only way to keep the estate and contents together for future generations. When I see (usually on TV) the massive libraries, collections of art and armor, etc., it makes me question the "reboot" approach in USA whereby an estate is divided up, and disappears. The latter, BTW, was intentional from the formation of USA so that no person, no family, would become too powerful.

John- do you need any of the books I pictured? Probably not, but better to ask.

In moving to FL, downsizing is one driver, but so is loss of what I consider to be a scientifically significant collection. The threat of total loss is too much for me to risk. I have two weeks till Cornell shows up and takes a lot away. Will I feel like Nabokov who soon regretted disposing of his hard-earned reference collection?

bobw · by bobw » Tue Mar 11, 2025 10:27 am

eurytides wrote: Sat Mar 08, 2025 6:19 pm Bobw, your UK experience might be very similar to what we see along the north range limit of glaucus here. Did you rear them under natural conditions?

I started them indoors, then sleeved them outside when they were L2/L3.

JVCalhoun · by JVCalhoun » Tue Mar 11, 2025 4:44 am

Chuck touched on a very important topic: what to do with a personal library when the time comes. I've attempted to build the most complete library of books on North American butterflies, and it currently totals over 1500 works, dating back to the 18th century. The images below show a portion of the collection. I tremble in my boots every time a hurricane is brewing near Florida!

Although the library is earmarked to go to a particular institution, I'm afraid they won't want some of them -- even those that are rarer -- if they already have copies. I maintain a detailed spreadsheet of every book I've ever purchased, including cost. This would hopefully make it easier for my wife in the event that I go unexpectedly.

Our kids look at it and just shake their heads...

58chevy · by 58chevy » Mon Mar 10, 2025 8:17 pm

Several years ago I downloaded a copy of "A Naturalist in Cannibal Land" & printed it out. I read part of it (captivating narrative), then loaned it to someone else. Thanks for reminding me to get it back.

eurytides · by eurytides » Mon Mar 10, 2025 6:40 pm

Here’s a picture from the orchid. 2 eggs on a single branch. We had to drive back to our hotel so I didn’t stay long. I could have easily found 100 eggs just along the side of the road.

eurytides · by eurytides » Mon Mar 10, 2025 6:35 pm

The irony is that my eye sight is terrible and I have had glasses since I was a kid. I always tell people the key to finding eggs is knowledge, practice, and patience.

Paul K · by Paul K » Mon Mar 10, 2025 5:11 pm

eurytides wrote: Mon Mar 10, 2025 1:37 pm Eggs were super common, one just had to look. I remember one day during my second trip there, we stopped by a roadside stand where someone was selling juice. They had an orchard in back and I asked if I could have a look. Found several eggs in under 5 minutes.

Note that Eurytides has eagle’s eye.
I wouldn’t find anything there most likely

Chuck · by Chuck » Mon Mar 10, 2025 2:47 pm

Thank you, mothman27. It was a labor of love.

I can't imagine how much time was spent on research to even get to starting the paper. To my mind, it was a capstone project, the top of a pyramid of immense research.

Generation after generation of various eastern Tiger Swallowtails were raised by Hagen & Lederhouse, Scriber, Pavulaan, and member Eurytides- that had to be thousands of hours, spread over 30 years.

There are no fewer than two dozen papers that built the foundation for Papilio solstitius. And each involved field work, research, testing, etc...each one is hundreds if not thousands of hours.

COI barcoding, records up and downloaded to BOLD, SNP analysis, etc. also is based partially on past work. More hundreds of hours.

For me alone, four papers drafted, four summers in the field ~3 hours/day, 4-5 days/week for almost four months. Record keeping every day; setting an average of ~4-6 specimens/ day. Trips to KY, VA, PA, and many shorter trips throughout central NY. Trips to Cornell and Carnegie. Travel by auto, aircraft, sailboat, and motorboat. Total guess, 3000 hours and $3000.

And for all those hours and dollars, the ironic thing is: they already knew it existed and was a unique taxon. I was driven by the fact that it was an open secret and nobody had named it, which drove me nuts. I wanted it named.

Beforeugo · by Beforeugo » Mon Mar 10, 2025 2:43 pm

Chuck wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2025 1:49 am The whole undersides of the wings in the fakes shown were clearly blued, it was horrible.

Ornithoptera male abdomens lose color naturally too. In nature they are bright banana yellow like a beacon. You can’t miss them. After death and over time they pale.

I have various priamus ssp- which would be the cheapest now to experiment on?

I tried 253.7 nm 39W UV +365nm 7w UV. Nothing change after 1 night. Some people argue that 405nm with 35w help. I have not tried that.

adamcotton · by adamcotton » Mon Mar 10, 2025 2:13 pm

eurytides wrote: Sun Mar 09, 2025 8:08 pm Summer form was on the wing when I visited some years ago (both times during the winter months in the north)

This suggests that the information I was told that there is only summer form all year round could be true. I wonder why P. xuthus apparently doesn't go into diapause in Hawaii, and why this species cannot similarly survive at similar latitudes in Asia. The southernmost point in its distribution (Dong Van, Hagiang, Vietnam ~23°13'N) is further north, and the smaller spring form is present there. Where I live in Chiang Mai the latitude is 18°43.6'N and Hawaii is only about 1 degree further north but all generations went into diapause here. I put pupae in the fridge for about a month or more to break diapause, and it didn't make any difference what time of year the adults emerged to breed on, all generations went into diapause.

Adam.

mothman27 · by mothman27 » Mon Mar 10, 2025 2:13 pm

I commend the authors on a very interesting and thorough article. I can't image how much time went into that research and publication. If a large and widespread lepidopterans can be so complex, how many more cryptic species are hiding in plain sight.

I'm curious about the DNA coding. How much of the specimen is used and what is the turnaround time?

Impressive work!

daveuk · by daveuk » Mon Mar 10, 2025 1:55 pm

Wonderful collection of books Chuck. Have a few of them on my own bookcases. Particularly loved the Phil DeVries book on Costa Rican butterflies. I have that one & the one he published on Costa Rican Riodinidae.

eurytides · by eurytides » Mon Mar 10, 2025 1:42 pm

More:

InsectNet forum

InsectNet forum

Butterfly exhibit (photos from previous years) (part 1)

Re: Remember these reference books? And antiques

Re: Remember these reference books? And antiques

Re: Remember these reference books? And antiques

Re: Remember these reference books? And antiques

Re: New Papilio described today

Re: New Papilio described today

Re: Remember these reference books? And antiques

Re: New Papilio described today

Re: Remember these reference books? And antiques

Re: Remember these reference books? And antiques

Re: Papilio xuthus

Re: Papilio xuthus

Re: Papilio xuthus

Re: New Papilio described today

Re: Ornithoptera victoriae rubianus "niclasi"

Re: Papilio xuthus

Re: New Papilio described today

Re: Remember these reference books? And antiques

Re: Papilio xuthus